dropping multi or just raise mhz?

[Boneface]

ok so is it better to drop the multiplier and raise the mhz or just leave the multiplier and raise the mhz? Any help here would be appreciated and if i didnt use the right terminology sorry...lol

thanks
Boneface

[Azn Tr14dZ]

It depends...you can get different results. If you drop your multiplier, your speed is lowering unless you raise the HTT. You will need a higher HTT to get high results with a lower multiplier, and depending on what motherbord, they can't always achieve a high HTT. So I say keep the multiplier at it's highest(default) then just raise the HTT.

[Boneface]

so htt is the mhz then? Sorry still kinda trying to grasp some of the stuff

[cdawall]

this link might help if yiu want to set u your system it tell you what your htt (1000mhz for s939 800mhz for your s754) try to keep it that those numbers remeber to drop your ram speed down when you get stuck the first time (s754 can only handle about a 30mhz oc before you drop your ram a speed) if you drop the multi you dont really need to worry about this b/c it does it drops it down when you drop the multi so far i have gotten much better scores w/ th higher multi

[Cj_Staal]

dropping the mult and highering the HTT will raise your memories bandwidth I believe...

[cdawall]

btw what is a good memory bandwidth i am running ddr2100 at ~2600mb/s that any good

[Azn Tr14dZ]

Not really...I got mine running at DDR 520 (260Mhz) at it get's past 7000Mb/s last time I checked...

[KennyT772]

azn ur running ddr2 not ddr. pc2100 or ddr 266mhz will get roughly 2100mb/ss. thats just the rule of thumb. 2600 is pretty good. although pc2100 will be much slower then pc3200..

[Azn Tr14dZ]

I'm running DDR...it's AMD Socket 939...

[cdawall]

ok thanx i guess oc'ing the ram to 325.4 and set the timing to 2.5-2-2-6 1T

[cdawall]

how cool is that 2nd place w/ stock comp. on everest

[Tatty_One]

dropping the mult and highering the HTT will raise your memories bandwidth I believe...

Correct, so dependant on memory speeds will depend on what option you take. It is always preferable to keep to the highest multiplier as that is the CPU default but if you have standard 400Mhz ram which is not particularily overclockable you will need to use a divider for your memory as raising the FSB raises the memory speed, so you drop to say 166Mhz from 200....if your highest FSB is say 230 on max multiplier your memory will probably only be running at 370Mhz, so then you can lower the multiplier by one which means you raise the FSB to get to the same speed but your memory speed raises because of the FSB increase so you then have near on 400Mhz performance...in general terms of course....make sense????

[Tatty_One]

btw what is a good memory bandwidth i am running ddr2100 at ~2600mb/s that any good

Aweful! am running 400Mhz at around 7000!! you need some treaking doin there m8.

[Alec§taar]

ok so is it better to drop the multiplier and raise the mhz or just leave the multiplier and raise the mhz? Any help here would be appreciated and if i didnt use the right terminology sorry...lol

thanks
Boneface

It's kind of a trade-off Bones...

You lower the HTT & raise the FSB to "offset" the hit your memory takes in its speed ratings... why?

Well, because generally, if you have "average" RAM like I do?

You have to, in order to boost the CPU mhz to its true possible "max", using what folks here call "dividers", which is, in essence/effect, dropping your memory rating.

Normal DDR-400 (not "overclocker ready" std. stuff) won't deal well with just blasting up the FSB (@ least not TOO much)... you start seeing problems if you try just do that, w/ regular RAM!

E.G.-> You lock up @ bootup, or while going into Windows itself. Sometimes, it's deceving too, you'll bootup just fine, & get into Windows too... but, once you start "pushing around" your RAM a bit, w/ a memory intesive app?

You'll see problems lickety-split...

I saw this while doing my overclock, all of those things, because I don't have "overclocking ready" RAM imo & those of others that assisted me in o/c'ing my rig here...

That is, until I ran the ScienceMark 2.0 benchmark program that is! It helped me find an upward amount, CPU-mhz-wise, that my RAM could deal w/ as well (because its tests are MASSIVELY "memory-intensive").

(E.G.-> I saw ALL of that, by going from DDR-400 memory rating, as I did in my case, to DDR-333 rates & then boosting that using a higher Front Side Bus (FSB) rate & a lower HTT setting (dropping from 5x default to 4x) until I hit a spot that ScienceMark 2.0 ran well on, & I was all set!)

Do you do better, dropping the multiplier & just raising the heck outta the FSB? Possibly, imo & based on observations I have done (more on that in my P.S.)... IF your RAM can deal w/ it that is... that's where programs like ScienceMark 2.0 help a LOT!

I think that (regardless of HyperTransport or DMA access to memory) jumping up multipliers & downing your FSB would be a BAD MOVE though... it'd make your memory performance probably go to heck!

Start out w/ the CPU's default (in the case of AMD stuff @ least? It's 12x to start with) & lower your RAM's DDR rate (400-> 333) & then start raising the FSB until you can't pass thru a test like ScienceMark 2.0... it worked for me so far @ least, as a method of determining how far my system would overclock & remain stable on ALL applications!

(The most troublesome for me so far has been Folding@Home, because I use the consolemode/DOS/Character mode TTY version of it, & a switch on its commandline "-forceasm" which is NOT recommended for o/c'd rigs, it's VERY touchy, but also a GOOD solid test of stability too imo @ least so far).

APK

P.S.=> I also went the reverse direction & LOWERED my multiplier to 11x & WAY kicked up the mhz on the FSB... up to 249mhz in fact.

I think it's "6 of 1 & 1/2 dozen of the other" really:

12x currently gives me 2772mhz on the CPU, & 185/200mhz on my RAM (higher on CPU-mhz, lower on RAM-mhz)

11x gave me 2750mhz on the CPU, & 196/200mhz on my RAM (higher rate of return here on the ram, but lower mhz on the CPU).

Both are/were equally stable, but I'd wager that the 11x setup was better in terms of "memory bandwidth", just given the ratio I got back on the RAM memory overall mhz possible...

Now, admittedly, I'm relative "NEW" to overclocking modern rigs, but it's just what I saw... could I be wrong on some of my points? Possibly... I am operating on my own observations after "tutelage" by folks here, & yes, some theory too! apk

[Cj_Staal]

"You lower the HTT & raise the FSB to "offset" the hit your memory takes in its speed ratings... "
The htt is the FSB m8 :)
That's the first thing I ever saw you get wrong

SHAME ON YOU!
J/P :)

[Alec§taar]

That's the first thing I ever saw you get wrong

SHAME ON YOU!
J/P :)

Hmmm, it is? In my BIOS, it is shown as a separate entity... & iirc, HTT (HyperTransport is the memory controller's rate, NOT the cpu or ram "clock" pulse).

:)

* Could I be wrong here? Possibly: I have stated several times today, I am hungover bad, lol... & that's when I'll slip, or omit/overlook facts. See my quote of myself above:

Now, admittedly, I'm relative "NEW" to overclocking modern rigs, but it's just what I saw... could I be wrong on some of my points? Possibly... I am operating on my own observations after "tutelage" by folks here, & yes, some theory too! apk

I am relatively "NEW" to o/c'ing these newer tech machines imo, & can stand correction @ times no doubt... so, fill me in!

APK

P.S.=> If I am "off" here? Please - do correct me! I only grow stronger via correction, as do we all... apk

[Cj_Staal]

the x1,x2,x3,x4,x5,Auto for the HTT Controller is the LDT.
The Multiplyer is the... Multiplyer :).
and the FSB is the HTT.
But most mobo's just have it as FSB.

[Alec§taar]

the x4 & x5 for the htt controller is the LTD

Right... but the HyperTransport Controller (Lightning Data Transport) is the memory controller rate, correct?

Not same thing as FSB (Front Side Bus)...

The FSB is the clock rate pulse of the system bus, external to the CPU, correct??

APK

[Cj_Staal]

The HyperTransport Controller is synced with the FSB so it effectivly makes it the FSB controller also, Just woke up, so I could be explaining it wrong.

Oh yeah I edited my above post.

[Alec§taar]

The HyperTransport Controller is synced with the FSB so it effectivly makes it the FSB controller also, Just woke up, so I could be explaining it wrong.

We had best "wait this one out" for others' feedback in this regard/on this note... imo, @ least!

You sound right in some ways, but you're not sure of yourself on this account it seems, but it does make some sense (it IS a system after all, synergy between componentry in the chipset does exist so, you may be right (they are inter-dependent)).

APK

[Cj_Staal]

We need Djbbenn

[Alec§taar]

We need Djbbenn

Yes, or Ketxxx, or POGE...

IMO, so far @ least? To me, they seem to be QUITE knowledgeable about modern hardware/mobo designs & such, perhaps the most so on these forums from my observations so far!

APK

[Boneface]

ok so im at 11x220, dropped ht ratio to 3, and kept memory at 333-wont do 400 cause of board here is it on cpuz...is there anything else i should know?

[Alec§taar]

ok so im at 11x220, dropped ht ratio to 3, and kept memory at 333-wont do 400 cause of board here is it on cpuz...is there anything else i should know?

Looks good to me, but as far as more? I am a "rookie/novice" @ some levels in this game, admittedly... Ketxxx &/or POGE are your "best pals" on this note/in that regard.

(Nice RAM - you keep your clocks tight!)

I did the DDR-333 too, because the default 5x HTT & fact my RAM is "generic stuff", forces me to, as it appears you had to do as well!

(And, according to what I understand from the guys that taught me more on this stuff here, Ketxxx, POGE, & even Tatty One? If you can get near to your DDR-400 memory rate of 200mhz? You did well!)

E.G.-> I can & have pulled off 196/200mhz using 11x multiplier X 249mhz FSB... a 98% efficiency (CPU-mhz was 2750mhz though, less than doing what I got doing 12x mults)... 12x multiplier X 231mhz got me 2772mhz on the CPU, BUT... here is the catch:

"ONLY" 185/200mhz on RAM speed rates... 93% efficient.

APK

P.S.=> Whether you run it @ DDR-400, or DDR-333 afaik? The MAIN thing to try to obtain IS the highest level of mhz return efficiency when overclocking... apk

[cdawall]

raise your voltage and you should get a much higher clock you are running it at almost stock and dont feel bad about the board not being able to handle 2gb at ddr400 you oc'd past what the processor can handle at ddr400 anyway (~430mhz) btw you should be able to drop your command rate back to 1T instead of 2T and if that is all you can get out of that processor i feel really bad for b/c mine is running 20mhz faster and it is only a 3000+ it will be safe to run at about 1.7v (if it cant just put it at whatever your max is and see if it just runs higher v wise in cpuz thats what mine does it is set to 1.55v and runs at 1.68v-1.72v

[Alec§taar]

raise your voltage and you should get a much higher clock you are running it at almost stock and dont feel bad about the board not being able to handle 2gb at ddr400 you oc'd past what the processor can handle at ddr400 anyway (~430mhz) btw you should be able to drop your command rate back to 1T instead of 2T and if that is all you can get out of that processor i feel really bad for b/c mine is running 20mhz faster and it is only a 3000+ it will be safe to run at about 1.7v (if it cant just put it at whatever your max is and see if it just runs higher v wise in cpuz thats what mine does it is set to 1.55v and runs at 1.68v-1.72v

I'll second those motions!

:)

(Very good man - you're "into it"!)

APK

[cdawall]

I'll second those motions!

:)

(Very good man - you're "into it"!)

APK
thanx i just hate to see him get ripped
btw boneface you didnt happen to get that processor from tigerdirest on sale did (it was $50 there last week)

[cdawall]

wow you know what is sad i outperform my pentium d 930 (stock no oc) in super pi and sciencemark 3s in super pi and almost 140pts in sm but that might just be b/c i just swapped mobos and it isnt liking the new one (stupid windows)

[Boneface]

thanx i just hate to see him get ripped
btw boneface you didnt happen to get that processor from tigerdirest on sale did (it was $50 there last week)
no i got it before the price drops for 100 from a guy 40 mins from where i live

[djbbenn]

the x1,x2,x3,x4,x5,Auto for the HTT Controller is the LDT.
The Multiplyer is the... Multiplyer :).
and the FSB is the HTT.
But most mobo's just have it as FSB.

Hmm see it's hard to grasp sometimes... HTT is Hyper Transport Tech, this is what gives the A64s their memory controller's communication speed. To keep it simple, a lot call the base clock the FSB instead of HTT (IE: 200MHz), but it's really the HTT.

HTT * LDT = HyperTransport Bus Frequency or that amazing 2000MHz bus speed you see advertised on s939 CPUs. LDT (Lightning Data Transport) is multipler to give you the HT Bus speed.

See there is not a FSB really, because the memory controller is on-die. HTT is shown as two ways, one is like the FSB (200MHz stock), and two the bus frequency (the 2000MHz on s939, 200 * 5 = 1000 * DDR = 2000). Following me?

Take a s939 4000+ for example. Default clock is 2400MHz, this comes from the 12x mulitplyer times 200MHz HTT. The HTT bus frequency speed is 2000MHz (200 * 5 = 1000, and it's DDR, so 2000MHz). On 939 CPUs, you want to keep the HTT under the 2000MHz to stay stable, and 1800MHz on 754 - this is done with the LDT. Do not worry about if it's not at that 2000MHz, it will not cut performance, it's just the way it's designed.

When you are raising that 200MHz or the FSB from stock, you're really raising the HTT. With A64s, there's just another varible in there, the HT bus speed. Which on s939, you need to keep close to, or under 2000MHz. Basically when overclocking, the first thing you do is drop the LDT multi to 4x, then keep lowering it as you need.

As to whether or not you drop the CPU multi, that's a different story. A lot of the time you lower the multi to get a better ratio with your ram. The way is to just try different things and see which yeilds the best performance.

Say you have some ram that is capable of doing 280MHz. You also found out you CPU max clock is close to 2800MHz. Now take the 4000+ like above with a stock multi of 12x. To get 2800MHz, all you need is a HTT of 233 times the 12X multi to get the 2800MHz. But if your memory can do 280MHz, that's when you drop your CPU multi to 10x and go for a 280MHz HTT and run 1:1. So now you're running, 280 x 10 = 2800MHz, with a 1:1 ratio on your ram. So the memory is doing it's 280MHz as well.

If your memory can't do that 280MHz, but the CPU can run 2.8GHz, that's when you try different things. Like a higher HTT with a divider, or a lower HTT and higher CPU multi with no divider. Really you just have to play and see...

I think I got it all straight there lol. :)

-Dan

[Alec§taar]

See there is not a FSB really, because the memory controller is on-die.

Key point, right there, imo @ least, so far...

Now, as far as the memory controller itself, it is ON the CPU, & SHOULD run @ the CPU internal clockrate, correct?

This makes sense...

Still, when talking to memory (or other components) on the mobo??

Doesn't "FSB" come into play there???

There IS a Front Side bus, has to be! OR, is this what HTT/LDT is geared to SOMEHOW, offset... if so, I would like to see the technicals on it & HOW it is implemented, bypassing the mobo bus!

That is because external to CPU stuff is generally SO much slower, you need to have caches & stuff to offset the lag...

(& STILL, cpu's spit out NOPs by the truckload waiting for other components external to themselves).

* Thanks for info.! Learning as I go along...

APK

[Boneface]

ok so heres what im at now....ht ratio at 3 and memory at 333 tried 200 and still wouldnt go any highier even with vcore at 1.725....can go to 1.750 but didnt know if it was a good idea...do u all think i should try it? and what does changing my timmings to 1T do?


all i have to do now is see if its stable

[djbbenn]

FSB is when the CPU communicates with the memory controller... But where A64s have a on-die controller, there is no need for a northbridge. The two are directly linked, there for are one I guess you could say. This reduces latency, and that's what gives the A64 their edge over P4s - I'm not going to get into the the edge over other chips and such though lol. With the acutal memory sticks themeselves, it's a direct link from the memory controller so it's just the CPU communicating with the controller that matters.

-Dan

[Alec§taar]

FSB is when the CPU communicates with the memory controller... But where A64s have a on-die controller, there is no need for a northbridge.

OK, then here is my "Intel heritage" showing thru... I've run Intel in every system I ever had mostly, only 1 other AMD (circa 1998 iirc, AMD K6-III @450mhz) prior to this machine I bought 5-6 months ago you see in my sig.

As far as the memory part, this makes complete sense & did earlier... still, thanks for the detail, I grow stronger via it & correction.

The two are directly linked, there for are one I guess you could say. This reduces latency, and that's what gives the A64 their edge over P4s - I'm not going to get into the the edge over other chips and such though lol.

Fair enough, & I don't blame you.

With the acutal memory sticks themeselves, it's a direct link from the memory controller so it's just the CPU communicating with the controller that matters.

-Dan

Right... now, refresh me - does the "SouthBridge" control CPU fsb to other peripherals?

APK

[cdawall]

tyhe only downside to the on-die controller is what i said earlier the conroller cannot run at more than 230mhz x2 if that so the max attainable ddr speed would be ddr460 (this is for s754 only s939 fixed that)
btw you should be pretty safe on 1.75v if you have a good cooler what temps are you getting now???

[djbbenn]

ok so heres what im at now....ht ratio at 3 and memory at 333 tried 200 and still wouldnt go any highier even with vcore at 1.725....can go to 1.750 but didnt know if it was a good idea...do u all think i should try it? and what does changing my timmings to 1T do?


all i have to do now is see if its stable

Here's how I do it...

First I find my CPU overclock. This is simply done by lowering the LDT to 2 or 3X, putting the ram on a 2:1 ratio (ram runs at 100MHz) - This makes sure your memory and HT bus speed have no effect on your CPU clock, because you just want to know the max CPU overclock. You can leave the CPU Multi at stock, and just raise the HTT to find your max overclock. You raise voltage accordingly as well with respect to tempertures and max safe voltage.

Once you found your max CPU overclock and you tested it with Prime95 (I suggest about 8 hours will be good), move onto your memory. Do this by going stock again, then dropping your CPU multi to around 7 or so, and LDT at 2 or 3. Makesure the ram is on a 1:1 ratio, leave the vcore at what you had when finding max CPU overclock too.

You're going to have to play with the timings and voltage here. Finding the max RAM overclock is a little more time consuming. This is if you want to overclock your RAM of cource. First I suggest just seeing how fast it will go on it's rated timings, then maybe relax them, and find how it does then. Then Prime the RAM and use memtest as well. Again, this is the sort of thing where you have to play with to see what yeilds better performance - high clocks, looser timings or, tighter timings lower clocks.

Once you find the maximums, then you have to figure out a good way to tie the max CPU overclock in with the RAM overclock. As I stated in my first post..

Say you have some ram that is capable of doing 280MHz. You also found out you CPU max clock is close to 2800MHz. Now take the 4000+ like above with a stock multi of 12x. To get 2800MHz, all you need is a HTT of 233 times the 12X multi to get the 2800MHz. But if your memory can do 280MHz, that's when you drop your CPU multi to 10x and go for a 280MHz HTT and run 1:1. So now you're running, 280 x 10 = 2800MHz, with a 1:1 ratio on your ram. So the memory is doing it's 280MHz as well.

Once you get the system running with the CPU and RAM overclock togeather, you make sure it's stable - do a nice long test of Prime95. Once it is, you can try and tweak it some more.

By finding the max of the CPU and RAM seperate, you can more easily find problems when they occure. If you got you cpu at 2600MHz, prime stable for a least 8 hours, then when you tried to tie your RAM in with it, and you get problems, there's a good bet it's the RAM. It may not be, but it's a better starting point.

-Dan

[djbbenn]

Right... now, refresh me - does the "SouthBridge" control CPU fsb to other peripherals?

APK

This is where HTT Bus speed comes comes into play. The HT bus is the link for everything.

-Dan

[Boneface]

tyhe only downside to the on-die controller is what i said earlier the conroller cannot run at more than 230mhz x2 if that so the max attainable ddr speed would be ddr460 (this is for s754 only s939 fixed that)
btw you should be pretty safe on 1.75v if you have a good cooler what temps are you getting now???



my idle temps are at 31c, load i have no idea yet...lol...but im going to try someother things also

edit:ok so ive tried the other way of lowering my multi to 10 and upping to 255 and heres what i get with mem at 333

[Alec§taar]

This is where HTT Bus speed comes comes into play. The HT bus is the link for everything.

-Dan

Ah... great, now I know, & now:

"We can rebuild him - we have the technology. We can make him better than he was: better... Faster... STRONGER!"

(Which I have gotten better @ in modern hardware the past 3-4 months now over time here, learning trivia, & techniques I wasn't aware of!)

BONUS - I "made my first mistake" according to Cj earlier, lol... it happens! Learn by 'em I say... this is NOT the first, unfortunately, on computer stuff (but, it is rare).


That's the first thing I ever saw you get wrong

SHAME ON YOU!
J/P :)

:)

* And the prize is what, lol? Well, for me - it's learning. AND, learning more about the CPU I use & liking it, all the more.

For you guys? WELL, it won't be a cash prize of part of the title of the show I am quoting above in bold print, this is certain...

Can you name it folks?

APK

P.S.=> You've got to be a sci-fi fan of sorts to know what I was quoting above, & from the early to mid 1970's no less, from sitcom T.V.... GOOGLERS NEED NOT APPLY! I don't know if it will show up like I phrased it above, punctuation-wise, though... apk

[cdawall]

ha thats sad i remember that quote just not the show
btw good oc boneface the only thing though can you ram handle 2.5-3-3-6 or even better 2.5-2-2-6 cause that makes a big improvement to

[Boneface]

ha thats sad i remember that quote just not the show
btw good oc boneface the only thing though can you ram handle 2.5-3-3-6 or even better 2.5-2-2-6 cause that makes a big improvement to



do u mean i can change the timings to those and make it better?And what does changing the timing to 1T do?

[cdawall]

it runs way faster at 1T and the mods i want you to do icreased my bandwidth ny almost 200mb/s use a64tweaker and you dont even have to use the bios :)

[bigboi86]

FSB is when the CPU communicates with the memory controller... But where A64s have a on-die controller, there is no need for a northbridge. The two are directly linked, there for are one I guess you could say. This reduces latency, and that's what gives the A64 their edge over P4s - I'm not going to get into the the edge over other chips and such though lol. With the acutal memory sticks themeselves, it's a direct link from the memory controller so it's just the CPU communicating with the controller that matters.

-Dan


You're forgetting that the FSB did more than just connect the memory controller/chipset to the CPU, it also communicates with RAM, which is why your ram speed goes higher or lower when you adjust the HTT/FSB.

The new technology and the way they name things makes things sound so complicated but it's not.

HTT and FSB are essentially the same thing.

I've been around computers for a long time, I still call it FSB everyday, because technically it is... a bus on the front side of the motherboard that connects the chipset, cpu and ram.

:)

[Alec§taar]

I've been around computers for a long time, I still call it FSB everyday, because technically it is... a bus on the front side of the motherboard that connects the chipset, cpu and ram.:)

I agree, & said the same thing myself (almost - except from an INTEL based perspective: those were ALL I RAN for nearly 15 years straight on these things) & so did others... pretty much!

Still, it IS good (for me @ least) to get the correct "AMD Lingo", & get the details...

Trust me: I need it, as much as I can get!

(Even though my work is NOT hardware-related anymore in this field, my roots are, & they need UPGRADE, imo - too many years of software/OS/Programming only, you do get RUSTY! I did, especially on the AMD-side - I was ALL INTEL for too long, & let AMD know-how hardware-wise, go slack here)

APK

[cdawall]

amd is sop much more fun to learn all the great names they use to avoid being like intel :)


notice all the sarcasm

[Boneface]

it runs way faster at 1T and the mods i want you to do icreased my bandwidth ny almost 200mb/s use a64tweaker and you dont even have to use the bios :)
ok so ive downloaded a64tweaker now what do i do?

[cdawall]

opk at the first arrow drop this as low as you can run everest home download (http://www.majorgeeks.com/downloadget.php?id=4181&file=10&evp=0da1e17dee7b6e8a3cc13fc5b7062019) and check for stability do same for other arrows and make sure the circled stuff sais enabled

[Boneface]

opk at the first arrow drop this as low as you can run everest home download (http://www.majorgeeks.com/downloadget.php?id=4181&file=10&evp=0da1e17dee7b6e8a3cc13fc5b7062019) and check for stability do same for other arrows and make sure the circled stuff sais enabled


so do i lower each of them one at a time and hit set and test each one?...i lowered the first one to 2.0 and hit set and it just froze up...and how do i know if it actually helping

update:ok so ive done this so far Cas lat wont go down past 2.5,ras to cas is at 2, ras to ras is at 1 and min ras is at 1....so now how do i test it in everest?

[Boneface]

no? nothing ?....lol

[cdawall]

sry it was nasty weather couldnt get on the comp
you go down to benchmark and run the 3 tests till you have your settings as low as you can it is not surprising you cant get down to 2.0, 2.5 is still way better than 3.0 and it worked for me one at a time that way i could tell what helped and what didnt

[Boneface]

hey thats not a problem...anyway heres a pic of what im at now...is there anything else i can do?
and thanks for the help

[cdawall]

might want to put the min tras up from 1* to 2 i dont think the * means it is not supported