Car Amplifier

[J0N]

Does anyone have any information on running a car amplifier out of a car? Does anyone have any diagrams of wiring it from a PSU or transformer?

[niko084]

But its very simple same rules apply you hook up ground and power.

Key here is to make sure you have enough amps, and you really want a psu
that has an output of at least 13.3-13.5 volts, and no more than 15 volts or so.

Reason being most car amplifiers are rated at 14.4 volts, your cars electronic system is NOT 12 volts, your alternator runs between 13-15 on average and even a full lead acid battery will put out around 13 volts.

A few mobile audio amps will take as high as 18-20 volts but don't push that one..

What you are going to want is a 13-15 volt power supply literally a car battery! This is a very important step unless you want to buy a $1000 40amp psu... You need the battery for noise filtering, otherwise you will get a very nasty buzz.

But it's simple...
You buy a psu- http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=120-556
Just a decent sized one, but the size depends on how many amps the amp you are trying to hookup will draw. It doesn't need to be as high but should be more for optimum sound quality and output.

Then just any standard car battery, personally I have done this before and like to use Optima Yellow Tops, because they are deep cycle and sealed, so you don't have to worry about ruining it as quick or easy, they output more, and they don't leak.

Hope that helped out a bit.

[Namslas90]

You can also use a Tech Bench PSU w/adjustable power. Less Noise. Used one of those when in high school in the garage.

[niko084]

You can also use a Tech Bench PSU w/adjustable power. Less Noise. Used one of those when in high school in the garage.

Thats why you use the battery... Besides it acts as a buffer so you don't clip your amp on peaks and blow speakers and outputs. ;)

[Namslas90]

Thats why you use the battery... Besides it acts as a buffer so you don't clip your amp on peaks and blow speakers and outputs. ;)

Yeah, but blowing the speakers was the best part. Had lots of old house speakers, and a lot of fun.

[niko084]

Yeah, but blowing the speakers was the best part. Had lots of old house speakers, and a lot of fun.

Heh if you want to do that just give em 110.... lol

I have walled soo many speakers... One took about 4 minutes to blow, it was kinda funny... An old Rockford Power DVC 12... 4 minutes plugged into the wall outlet to blow its coil.

[J0N]

Hopefully I wont be breaking this! Its a 1000w Infinity Reference! :cool:

I have it pluggeed into my 200w Power Amp at the moment...Unfortunately it dosent do the speaker justice! All that wasted powaa!!! :banghead:

Thanks for the advice! I was hoping to keep it fairly compact, so im not to sure about the car battery! I actualy have one in the house, but its huuge!

[niko084]

Hopefully I wont be breaking this! Its a 1000w Infinity Reference! :cool:

I have it pluggeed into my 200w Power Amp at the moment...Unfortunately it dosent do the speaker justice! All that wasted powaa!!! :banghead:

Thanks for the advice! I was hoping to keep it fairly compact, so im not to sure about the car battery! I actualy have one in the house, but its huuge!

Be WARNED a Infinity Reference DOES NOT TAKE 1000 WATTS!

10" RMS- 250 watts
12" RMS- 300 watts

RMS is the only number that matter unless you are doings 1/10th second burps for SPL competition. Totally disregard peak power ratings, they are a joke and don't belong on audio equipment...

[J0N]

Be WARNED a Infinity Reference DOES NOT TAKE 1000 WATTS!

I am fully aware of that, it just sounds cooler when you say 1000w. Also thats the name of the model. Its quite old, not one of the lastest in the Reference series.

[niko084]

I am fully aware of that, it just sounds cooler when you say 1000w. Also thats the name of the model. Its quite old, not one of the lastest in the Reference series.

Lol okay, I just have to check I hate to blow my speakers, and I know it sucks when you do it..

[J0N]

Yea it really sucks when that happens. :( worse when something falls onto the cone and rips it! :cry:

[niko084]

Yea it really sucks when that happens. :( worse when something falls onto the cone and rips it! :cry:

I know that feeling I lost 2 Rockford Power DVC 15's and 2 Power 1000a2 amps in my first Iroc-Z to that when I crashed it, amps flew and the boards cracked, and the subs got ripped to shreads when at least one of the amps flew across it... Everything was secure too :(

Thats what you get when you drive 150mph on a 35 road though...
Lesson learned well and hard.

[J0N]

150mph on a 35 road though...

:eek: I wish my car was capable of those speeds! Its max's out at 105! Thats insane, if I could give rep I would! ;)

[Carcenomy]

From my experiments with car amps and power supplies I've noticed it takes more amperage than most PSUs are capable of delivering, Niko, ever noticed this?

I had a little Alpine Flex2 and it would power up fine, but as soon as load was applied the protection would kick in and kill it. Just wasn't enough juice to drive it.

[blacktruckryder]

You could just get a plate amp to power the sub?

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=505

[J0N]

You could just get a plate amp to power the sub?

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?Webpage_ID=3&CAT_ID=43&ObjectGroup_ID=505

Thats something i've been looking into, struggling to find those in the Uk, but with those models i'll have a look. Cheers.

You ought to see what i've done to my sub, maybe i'll post pictures later... ;)

[J0N]

Presenting: The Wasp Box ;)

Before:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q282/ReignInPain/TPU/P2010126.jpg

After:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q282/ReignInPain/P2020129.jpg

:rockout:

[niko084]

From my experiments with car amps and power supplies I've noticed it takes more amperage than most PSUs are capable of delivering, Niko, ever noticed this?

I had a little Alpine Flex2 and it would power up fine, but as soon as load was applied the protection would kick in and kill it. Just wasn't enough juice to drive it.

You need to buy big good power supplies and you don't have that issue. I have worked in retail car audio for coming up on 9 years, and have owned my own company for 5. Thats what they use to power car audio in stores, but generally only a 50 amp psu and a battery. Key is to buy a "GOOD" Psu otherwise they get voltage drop nearing their max output.

[Carcenomy]

Ahhh I see, good to know. I ended up using a rapid car battery charger, worked alright :)

[ex_reven]

Yeah, but blowing the speakers was the best part. Had lots of old house speakers, and a lot of fun.

I laughed so hard when i read this :p

ive always been interested in car audio...never had a chance to learn lol :)

[niko084]

Ahhh I see, good to know. I ended up using a rapid car battery charger, worked alright :)

Ya but for future reference, a car charger isn't that great of an idea, they are built to have constant work against them, standard power supplies can be left on day and night, a battery charger plugged in all the time with constant various pulls with burn it out.

But it will do the trick, I did an old Alpine Flex 2 amp myself can't remember the model little 2 channel probably 100 watts rms bridged, but it ran my single rockford 10" fine in my old apt until I moved my stereo out of storage. I had that hooked to a battery with a 4amp trickle charger hooked to the battery.

[Wile E]

Niko, you keep making references to using car batteries to keep the voltage up during spikes, but couldn't you also just use a cap/caps. Like 1 Farad, or something along those lines? Serious question here, just wondering if you tried it and what your thoughts are on it.

[niko084]

Niko, you keep making references to using car batteries to keep the voltage up during spikes, but couldn't you also just use a cap/caps. Like 1 Farad, or something along those lines? Serious question here, just wondering if you tried it and what your thoughts are on it.

Well those also would help a lot, but more in addition to a battery. You need something that holds a lot of power, caps hold a lot of voltage to help balance, but they drain on an instant. A lot of people in the car audio world mistake a cap for helping your charging system, when in fact they really don't at all, they only work for burst output, when music peaks and a bass slam comes from no where, your battery can't go from 20 amp draw to 80 amp draw on an instant, so you get voltage drop which causes distortion and less power, caps are used to balance that out. But you need the charging system to be able to hold it anyways.

Basically the way they really work is you have your alternator-power supply, that is the source for the charge *you really can't draw power directly off these sources because its dirty power and the voltages are not balanced out very well. A capacitor basically is a very fast charge, and de-charge dry cell battery, they don't hold power for any sustained amount of use. A camera flash is a great thing to relate this to, the batteries in a camera charge a capacitor *generally 300volts* to burst the 300 volts at full amperage *generally .25 amps* to create a massive flash of light, but it doesn't last long. Same idea, they use it to buffer voltage, being your battery runs at around 13 volts full, if you ever notice how when you start your car your voltage drops while its turning over, its the nature of DC power, when its used it loses voltage, you can regulate to a point but its all done with capacitors and in some cases voltage regulators but it only helps to a point. Now the plus side to the battery is if it is requiring lets say an 80amp burst it can put out 80amps without an issue, where as the power supply probably can't unless you spend a lot of money. Even amplifiers that draw 20 amps and have 20 amp fuses can burst as high as 40-50 amps...

So your main basic parts of a good DC system is a charging system no matter what it may be, a high output deep cycle cell of some sort *in car audio the best price for what you get being a car battery*, and then of course your capacitor to help stabilize voltage, the main reason for the battery is to clean the spikes out of the power, and to allow big pulls without burning out the power supply.

This is a case where I would give up the battery...
Say I had a 140amp power supply and I would say a minimum of a 5 farad capacitor bank, I personally would feel pretty good about running an amplifier that on normal draw took about 30-40amps.

Capacitor is a last thing upgrade, they cost a good amount of cash for a good one, and bad ones are almost useless... And the good ones cost more than a battery and a single one will not help half as much as a battery will.

In car audio I recommend in this order-
alternator - you need something to be able to charge what you are using

battery - you need something to handle the output because your alternator can't jump from 40amps to 140amps output either

capacitors - once you have that done and built heavy enough for your system, you can add these to take the little waves out of your voltages. Normally its very small numbers between like 14.0 - 14.2 volts they are literally used for that last tiny bit of control, and really only help on peaks and for extreme sound quality.

I am pretty bad at explaining some things, mainly why I quit dealing in retail....
But I hope you can follow this.

[Wile E]

No worries, I fully understood. I thought it was the sudden spikes that you were trying to eliminate by suggesting a deep cycle battery, thus the reason I thought of the caps. I wasn't considering the effects of amplifier draw on overall voltage when I thought of it. I have a bit of experience in car audio myself(though I'm about 2-3years behind the curve now), so none of this is foreign to me. I just never dealt with it in a situation like this. I'm an SQ man, btw. lol

[Lazzer408]

Use a yellow wire (12v) and a black (neg) from one of the 4pin molex connectors. You tie the remote wire to the yellow as well. Car batteries are 12v btw. Fully charged they can reach 13.2-13.8 but don't stay there under load. May I also recomend using a 10a fuse on the 12v line as well. This will limit you to 120watts continous draw but will allow higher peaks without popping the fuse. You should be able to get 50x2 out of the amp this way. If loud sounds (bass & drums) cause the computer to hang or reset try putting a 470-1000mfd 16v (minimum) capasitor BEFORE the fuse to help the dips in power.

[niko084]

Use a yellow wire (12v) and a black (neg) from one of the 4pin molex connectors. You tie the remote wire to the yellow as well. Car batteries are 12v btw. Fully charged they can reach 13.2-13.8 but don't stay there under load. May I also recomend using a 10a fuse on the 12v line as well. This will limit you to 120watts continous draw but will allow higher peaks without popping the fuse. You should be able to get 50x2 out of the amp this way. If loud sounds (bass & drums) cause the computer to hang or reset try putting a 470-1000mfd 16v (minimum) capasitor BEFORE the fuse to help the dips in power.

Erm there is no way to guess amps per output watts without knowing the efficiency of the amplifier.. Some are as high as 80+% and some are lower than 40%...

[niko084]

No worries, I fully understood. I thought it was the sudden spikes that you were trying to eliminate by suggesting a deep cycle battery, thus the reason I thought of the caps. I wasn't considering the effects of amplifier draw on overall voltage when I thought of it. I have a bit of experience in car audio myself(though I'm about 2-3years behind the curve now), so none of this is foreign to me. I just never dealt with it in a situation like this. I'm an SQ man, btw. lol

Ya I'm an SQ guy myself. I run big low powered huge power drawing clean amps and small subs in big boxes for my low end. I used to be into how loud can it get, then I got bored of it, and decided to get into something harder to do.. Loud is simply just too easy, plus the headaches get annoying after the cool wares off..

[sneekypeet]

Does anyone have any information on running a car amplifier out of a car? Does anyone have any diagrams of wiring it from a PSU or transformer?



I dont get it the question is how to...... u got the amp? and i see the box! If answer is yes , to your local electronics store ( Radioshack here has em) and purchase a AC to DC power inverter.....my dad had 1 when i was younger. I powered a detatchable face radio(cd player) and a 500W amp to 2x12" JL Audio's ....worked like a charm!!!!!!



hope this helps

[J0N]

The question was if I were to get a car amp, how can i run it in my house without nasty noises and making things go boom! Cheers for the input, but i've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do now is continue running it through my power amp.

[Lazzer408]

Erm there is no way to guess amps per output watts without knowing the efficiency of the amplifier.. Some are as high as 80+% and some are lower than 40%...

I was considering a "typical" class-ab amplifier being 60-80% and also taking into considerating that the caps in the amp will allow for a bit more peak power then my suggested fused 120w continous supply to the amplifier. If it's class-d it could be 90%+ but I was taking a quick guess for a quick answer in a forum...not actually taking the time to get technical details of the amplifier topology, power consumptions, efficiencies, speaker loads, ect ect ect. This isn't an "ideal" situation and there are many other ways he could connect it. He could get another PC powersupply for the amplifier and use a small 5-12v relay to activate the other supply. That's what I'd do.

[niko084]

Aww okay :)

[Lazzer408]

couldn't you get some sort of step down transformer and maybe a var. resistor? house power is usually quite clean.

You would need a step down xformer, bridge rectifier, and capacitor at a bare minimum and that is unregulated.

[niko084]

couldn't you get some sort of step down transformer and maybe a var. resistor? house power is usually quite clean.

House power isn't the issues, it transforming it into 12-15 volt DC... The power supply has dirty outputs, as does DC power in general. The cleanest power supplies for DC simply have a ton of capacitors in them on the outputs to take the noise out.

[Lazzer408]

The question was if I were to get a car amp, how can i run it in my house without nasty noises and making things go boom! Cheers for the input, but i've come to the conclusion that the best thing to do now is continue running it through my power amp.

I believe I answered your question but are you trying to connect this to a PC or just run it from a PC power supply? PC powersupplies are very clean. The switching is done at over 20khz and the filter caps/inductors in the PSU do a great job providing clean DC power. I dare you to find ripple.

[J0N]

Just run it from a Power Supply.

[Lazzer408]

Oh well shit thats easy. Do you know how to turn on the psu? Just ground the green wire. (see pic) Then grab 12v from a 4pin molex. Yellow (12v) and Black (gnd)

http://img.techpowerup.org/070204/ATX-on.jpg

[Lazzer408]

Here you go guy. Works like a champ. No noise in the output at all other then a slight hiss from the amplifier idling. Pounds a 12" pretty darn good. :) That's only an old 150w psu too.

http://img.techpowerup.org/070204/PSU_Fosgate (Medium).jpg

[J0N]

Cheers mate! What Amp is that btw?

[Lazzer408]

Rockford Fosgate Punch 800a2. It's an older amp. I bet it's 10yrs old but they sound great.

[niko084]

Rockford Fosgate Punch 800a2. It's an older amp. I bet it's 10yrs old but they sound great.

Lol ya older amp back when Rockford made a GOOD amp... :(

[niko084]

Here you go guy. Works like a champ. No noise in the output at all other then a slight hiss from the amplifier idling. Pounds a 12" pretty darn good. :) That's only an old 150w psu too.

http://img.techpowerup.org/070204/PSU_Fosgate (Medium).jpg

Ya wont get too much noise being you have it low passed, its high notes that get REAL bad...

But with that kinda lacking on power, you stand a very strong chance at blowing the power supply from overdraw and your mosfets from heavy clips and under/over voltage...

If you use it like that make sure you keep the volume down and don't burn out the power supply.. Thankfully that old rockford is also a pretty bullet proof amp.

[Carcenomy]

Intriguing. The old Flex2 wouldn't run on a computer PSU, no way, no how.

Niko, still got the Flex2 too, it drives an 8" Infinity in my old '82 Corolla *chuckle*

[niko084]

Intriguing. The old Flex2 wouldn't run on a computer PSU, no way, no how.

Niko, still got the Flex2 too, it drives an 8" Infinity in my old '82 Corolla *chuckle*

I don't have one anymore, but funny you say that it drove a Rockford 10" in a '89 Camry... I took it when I sold the guy a Audiobahn 560 watt and 2 Phoenix Gold 12's to replace his cute little 10"... He said I have no use for it so I said buh I'll find something to do with it.

[Lazzer408]

Ya wont get too much noise being you have it low passed, its high notes that get REAL bad...

But with that kinda lacking on power, you stand a very strong chance at blowing the power supply from overdraw and your mosfets from heavy clips and under/over voltage...

If you use it like that make sure you keep the volume down and don't burn out the power supply.. Thankfully that old rockford is also a pretty bullet proof amp.

niko niko niko... Do you take me for a fool? You constantly point out the obvious. :shadedshu As far as the low pass, :rolleyes: I had to turn it off and hook some 2way speakers to it so I could hear the tweeter produce the "hiss" that I mentioned as the amp idled. This was only a proof-of-concept test. No one is building a THX certified home theater system here that I know of. :slap: I have built a 144kw Class-d "amplifier". Technically that wasn't a push/pull design. It was a motor controller (pwm fixed 20khz) I used it to drive a 144v 1000amps series-wound motor in a '91 Geo Metro I converted to electric. It would lite the tires thru 3 gears. :D THAT'S power. :respect:

[niko084]

niko niko niko... Do you take me for a fool? You constantly point out the obvious. :shadedshu As far as the low pass, :rolleyes: I had to turn it off and hook some 2way speakers to it so I could hear the tweeter produce the "hiss" that I mentioned as the amp idled. This was only a proof-of-concept test. No one is building a THX certified home theater system here that I know of. :slap: I have built a 144kw Class-d "amplifier". Technically that wasn't a push/pull design. It was a motor controller (pwm fixed 20khz) I used it to drive a 144v 1000amps series-wound motor in a '91 Geo Metro I converted to electric. It would lite the tires thru 3 gears. :D THAT'S power. :respect:

Electronic Engineer?

I don't mean any offense in my posts at all, I just try to clear up anything that someone that is less knowledgeable may not see or notice. Sounds to me here that you are a little above my head in general electronics.

[Lazzer408]

Electronic Engineer?

I don't mean any offense in my posts at all, I just try to clear up anything that someone that is less knowledgeable may not see or notice. Sounds to me here that you are a little above my head in general electronics.

Oh don't mine me. I'm just trying to help the guy and it seems like your finding negatives in a "design" rather then apply your input to improve it, that's all. He can safely try it without blowing anything. The powersupply can't provide enough current to blow the amplifier and -most- psu's have current limiting that will trip them into protection before they blow. Now that I think about it...when someone had a problem running an amp off a psu it could have been the amplifier's inrush current, as it charges the capasitors, tripping the psu's protection. This could be overcome by first turning on the psu then using a 50ohm resistor in series with the amp for a few seconds before hooking the amp up directly to the psu. Then the amp can be turned on via. the remote turn-on lead. Always a solution. :D

EDIT - I'm not an engineer. I'm just an electronics hobbiest but I do know quit a bit about circuit design. I do this for fun. The EV Geo project was for fun. :) EcoGeo 1 was it's name and also it's licence plate.

[Lazzer408]

Here it is. I sold it last year though. I miss it! :ohwell: The project was to prove that some joe-nobody could built a functional drivable electric vehicle on little or no budget. This is an old pic. The alternator was removed and replaced with a dc/dc convertor. (144v to 14.2v)

http://img.techpowerup.org/070204/Motor (Small).jpg

[niko084]

Oh don't mine me. I'm just trying to help the guy and it seems like your finding negatives in a "design" rather then apply your input to improve it, that's all. He can safely try it without blowing anything. The powersupply can't provide enough current to blow the amplifier and -most- psu's have current limiting that will trip them into protection before they blow. Now that I think about it...when someone had a problem running an amp off a psu it could have been the amplifier's inrush current, as it charges the capasitors, tripping the psu's protection. This could be overcome by first turning on the psu then using a 50ohm resistor in series with the amp for a few seconds before hooking the amp up directly to the psu. Then the amp can be turned on via. the remote turn-on lead. Always a solution. :D

EDIT - I'm not an engineer. I'm just an electronics hobbiest but I do know quit a bit about circuit design. I do this for fun. The EV Geo project was for fun. :) EcoGeo 1 was it's name and also it's licence plate.

Aw I see. Ya I didn't think about tripping the psu on initial turn on signal.. That could become an issue, but like you said the resistor inline would probably slow that enough to not create a problem. You know though I never did honestly think about using a computer psu for a car audio amp... It is a different kind of concept thats for sure.

[niko084]

Here it is. I sold it last year though. I miss it! :ohwell: The project was to prove that some joe-nobody could built a functional drivable electric vehicle on little or no budget. This is an old pic. The alternator was removed and replaced with a dc/dc convertor. (144v to 14.2v)

http://img.techpowerup.org/070204/Motor (Small).jpg

Nice work! Ya when people say it can't be done, it is a grand thing to show them up.

[Lazzer408]

Aw I see. Ya I didn't think about tripping the psu on initial turn on signal.. That could become an issue, but like you said the resistor inline would probably slow that enough to not create a problem. You know though I never did honestly think about using a computer psu for a car audio amp... It is a different kind of concept thats for sure.

The powersupplys used in the car audio store displays are smps supplies. Switched Mode Power Supply. The same thing as a PC'c psu. They are 600watts (50a)

[niko084]

The powersupplys used in the car audio store displays are smps supplies. Switched Mode Power Supply. The same thing as a PC'c psu. They are 600watts (50a)

Ya most are 50-75amps, I knew what they were, they just have a lot more capacitors and a lot more cooling and such. Well generally anyways.

Only drawback to a computer psu at that point is obviously you can't really get that nice 4 gauge power cable connected properly :ohwell:

[niko084]

lol, you guys buy amps, I BUILD amps, got a good chip here, tda7294 FTW!!! Built me a sandwich board with a few of those, bridged them got a Microchip proccy for vol/basic eq/some distortion.Hooked it to a variable PSU (0-20v 6a max, real solid one with VERY clean power (weighs like 25 pounds tho lol). Worked great till my mom THREW THE THING AWAY!

I grew tired of trying to hunt down the best of the best components.

So I buy amps made by companies like McIntosh.

[micron]

I ran a Coustic 600W four channel automobile amp off of an Allied 350W computer power supply for a while. The system powered two Coustic 10' subs. I got some pretty nice bass out of it, but didn't have near enough power to turn things up very high without distortion. I now use a Yamaha home theatre sub for the same thing, it sounds much better.

[Farooos]

Hey guys, I stumbled upon this page the other day where sum guy linked up 3 seperate psu's to power an Alpine M450 mono block amp to use on for home audio ... he claims that its a cheap and effective setup .. the details are on the site if your interested... Are there any issues i should be aware of when considering a similar setup???
Also to what extent can I overpower my amp..? is there a limit'?

Cheerz

btw the site is
http://hardware3d.com/index2.php?page=How%20To%20Use%20Car%20Audio%20On% 20Your%20PC

[Lazzer408]

Hey guys, I stumbled upon this page the other day where sum guy linked up 3 seperate psu's to power an Alpine M450 mono block amp to use on for home audio ... he claims that its a cheap and effective setup .. the details are on the site if your interested... Are there any issues i should be aware of when considering a similar setup???
Also to what extent can I overpower my amp..? is there a limit'?

Cheerz

btw the site is
http://hardware3d.com/index2.php?page=How%20To%20Use%20Car%20Audio%20On% 20Your%20PC

What do you mean overpower? You could hook 5000 powersupplies to your amp if you wanted. It's only going to draw what it needs.

[niko084]

Yes you can have as many amps of output as you please.. The only part of car audio where you can "overpower" your amp would be with voltage.

I do like his idea there for a setup, but I do see one issue, just one thing I really wish I would have seen out of all the work he did to do that.. For really good power, he should have gone into the power supply and soldered new I would say at least 10-12 gauge power/ground cables to the 12volt. From the looks of it he is using at least 14 gauge or so, which being there are 3 of them probably would do the trick yet, but he has them ending at one, which could cause an extremely hot portion of the cable and quite possibly some voltage/amperage drop.

But no there are no issues with it at all, just like Lazzer said.

::::Just make sure you don't hook up ground to power.... And your good to go :)

[bangingsound]

Great info! I've been thinking about doing it on my unit as well. Thanks guys!

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