Pointless Upgrade?

[evil bill]

I think I know the answer to this, but some opinion would be welcome.

I have a P4 530J (3.0Ghz, 1MB Cache, 800FSB). My motherboard (Asus P5P800) can only take 5xx/6xx P4s so an upgrade to a dualie is out. I dont intend to build a completely new PC until next year when both DX10 and Vista are a bit more developed.

I keep seeing P4 650's for around £60. as well as being clocked at 3.4Ghz, they have 2MB cache.

On the one hand, I feel this would give me a wee performance boost to keep me going until next year, but on the other hand I suspect it might be so slim as to be not worth it.

Any opinion/evidence to support either viewpoint?

cheers, Bill

[Jadawin]

It's a 15% estimated performance gain. How that translates into the real world I can't tell, but if there's anything that won't run properly on your 3 Ghz P4, then I doubt it would run great with 3.4 Ghz. Why not just overclock the 3 Ghz a bit? 3.3 should be possible with that board :) That's for free and achieves the same.

[Wile E]

I agree with Jadawin. Overclock what you have and save that money to put towards ram when you do upgrade.

[evil bill]

cheers guys.

I have O/cd it from time to time, but it ends up running too hot even with an Arctic Cooling Freezer 7. When I first got it, the standard Intel heatsink and fan couldn't cope with it at all under load - throttle back city. Its one hot little chip.

You have confirmed what I thought - its probably not worth it. Now, when 671's are £60 thats a different matter ;)

[Jadawin]

I'd rather go the Asrock 4Core VSTA motherboard + E6300 or E4300 way then :) Cheap upgrade, you can use DDR1 memory and AGP gfx cards and still have to power of a core2 duo and even quad with that board. And the board is below £40 at Ebuyer.

[evil bill]

I have actually already given this very serious consideration, and may yet do so. However, its more likely that I'll just wait and build an entirely new rig next year.

[evil bill]

When I looked at the Asrock board it was a Dual-Vsta and the PCIe slot was only x4 or x8. Is it still the same or is it x16 now that its a 4Core-Vsta?

EDIT - its still PCIe x4 :(

[xvi]

I'd rather go the Asrock 4Core VSTA motherboard + E6300 or E4300 way then :) Cheap upgrade, you can use DDR1 memory and AGP gfx cards and still have to power of a core2 duo and even quad with that board. And the board is below £40 at Ebuyer.

DDR2 doesn't really cost more (if not less) than DDR1 and AGP is going to be more expensive than PCI-e (with less options too). It's hard to say what the Core 2 Duo lineup will look like once AMD's Barcelona cores come out. Intel will probably at least slash their CD/C2D prices when that hits. Who knows. Maybe the Barcelona will come out ahead.

As for the upgrade, an extra 400MHz is nothing to upgrade to, but twice the L2 might be. It wouldn't be worth it to me, personally. Now, if you could sell your old processor, that would be a different story. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother. If you can't sell your old processor for a good price, then I'd just save the money for your next upgrade. I sold my old S754 Sempron 3100+ to my roommate for $50 USD and bought a S754 Sempron 64 3400+ for $90 USD. $40 for 64-bit, 300MHz (and a little extra L2, I think) wasn't bad in my opinion.

If you're still looking for some extra performance, try adding another 1 GB of memory. And if you DO build a new computer, try not to go too cheap. As they always say, you get what you pay for. My dad's computer (which I'm typing this from now) is running Vista Ultimate on a 1.2 GHz Duron (Applebred) and GeForce 5200 (and yes, it's using the Aero interface). It's a little choppy on occasion, but it's still quite fast considering the hardware it's running on. I have it overclocked to 1.38 GHz, which bumped the index score up from 2.0 to 2.5 (possibly more with a little GPU overclocking). Unfortunately, the motherboard isn't the best for overclocking. There isn't a PCI/AGP lock and I can't change the CPU multiplier (although I can change the memory timings).
My Sempron machine (the one in the specs) runs Vista surprisingly well. I would use it for most everything if nVidia would just come out with working nForce3 RAID drivers. It looks like you have a similar machine to mine. If you're worried about not being able to run Vista, don't be.

To wrap up this post.. Yeah.. It's probably going to be a pointless upgrade. Adding an extra 1 GB of memory might give you the boost you're looking for (and it will also make your computer very Vista-ready, if you decide to try Vista out). As for overclocking, your temps really shouldn't be that high. It looks like you have some nice memory, so I'd see if you can lower your memory timings. That might also help. Good luck!

Edit: @Jadawin> I understand that the idea is to keep his memory and video card, but if he bought a new mobo and processor, he might as well sell his old computer and build a new one (IMHO). I've seen some really horrible reliability/compatibility when manufacturers try to fit old technology on new chipsets. Those mobos that have both AGP and PCI-e? Horrid!
And I don't think using DDR1 with a C2D is a very good idea. If you're getting a new processor (such as a C2D), don't try to use your old AGP and DDR1 hardware. No matter what you do, it's going to end in one big RMA.

[evil bill]

Thanks for that :)

I could probably get rid of my 530 to a friend for £25 ($50) so the cost of change to me would only be £35 ($70). This might just be worth it. A very kind person on this forum has PMd me to say they have just ordered a 650 to replace a fried 530 so I await his results with anticipation.

I do keep toying with the idea of an upgrade in stages. It would go something like this with some variances as prices/specs change. Each stage would represent 3-4 months aprt

1. Replace P5P800 and P4 530j with Asrock 4Core-VSTA and e6300/e6400.
2. Replace 1Gb DDR-400 with 2GB DDR2-800 (although the 4Core only support up to DDR2-667, it would turn itself down though Id guess?.)
3. Replace X850 Pro with R600/G80 derivative
4. Replace 4Core-VSTA and XP with Asus Commando and Vista

This has the advantage of sneaking an entire system upgrade under the WifeRadar, but its a bit long winded. To be honest, I have the cash right now to do it in one, but we are moving house this year so I need to keep it for unforeseen circumstances.

Thanks again

[Jadawin]

Nope, it sounds bad, but it isn't. Look at the benchmarks with DDR1:

http://www.ocworkbench.com/2006/asrock/4CoreDual-VSTA/g1.htm

Yes, the PCIe is 4x only, but again, this sounds bad, but it isn't. Take a look at those benchmarks with PCIe set to 1,2,4,8 and 16x:

http://tomshardware.co.uk/2004/11/22/sli_is_coming/page10.html

It's a cheap upgrade and a good one.

[evil bill]

I hadn't seen that particular review but I have read similar - it does make a compelling case.

The PCIe bandwidth one I'm a bit less sure about as those were some pretty old cards - I think an R600/G80 would choke on it as these should utilise the extra bandwidth of PCIe x16 (the first PCIe cards to do so however, AGP is the equal of PCIe x8 and I dont think any DX9 cards even use this up)

[Mussels]

PCI-E 4x isnt much of a performance hit, but G80 definately wont work. It needs x16 to run (google it, you cant SLI on the Nforce 4 series boards because they run 0x 16x or 8x 8x)

R600 will probably suffer teh same fate.

[Scavar]

Personally, I would just wait till you felt it was good to upgrade completely, and hell just have two computers.

Thats how most of my upgrades go. Also the reason I have a bunch of computers and random parts laying around.


Wait for AMD/ATi to release their new stuff, see where everything goes, then just upgrade in one fowl swoop.

[Mussels]

My upgrade rule is:

If its to replace the system entirely, wait for double the performance.
If its an upgrade, get at least 50% faster/larger over what you have now.

For those who dont get it: upgrading from an X1600PRO to an X1650PRO isnt worth it - going to a 1950PRO would be. going from a 3Ghz CPU to a 3.4 isnt worth it, going to a conroe is ;)

[zekrahminator]

My rule of upgrading-
If you have already/need to replace 4 or more parts (excluding hardware you broke yourself), it's time for a new computer :).

[evil bill]

I have another question related to the above as this is actually one of the reasons I was looking at 650s in the first place.

A friend has the following system spec.

Gigabyte 81915GMF mobo
Pentium 4 515 (2.93Ghz, 1MB L2 Cache, 533Mhz FSB)
1gb DDR-400 RAM (2 x 512MB in Dual Channel)
X1950 PRO 512MB (PCI-e)

3DMark 05 Score 6082
3DMark 05 CPU Score 3085

I think this is low, considering I get this

3DMark 05 Score 5263 (5897 @ 3.2Ghz & X850 at 572/610)
3DMark 05 CPU Score 3759 (3799 as above)

I reckon his CPU is screwing everything else up as it is forcing his system to run at 533Mhz rather than 800Mhz.

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/4396/88804716ma9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/4796/18482116kk4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9742/46795204yn8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/2042/11324615fo1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/6822/21766690ir2.jpg (http://imageshack.us)http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/3352/12854607nb7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

I had suggested the 650 to him as a potential replacement but as he has just bought the X1950 and a 500w PSU he is a bit reluctant.

I have offered him my 530 at a very reasonable price :) The theory is that with his FSB and RAM running at their full potential, his whole system will run substantially better.

Am I talking utter bollocks?

[xvi]

I have another question related to the above as this is actually one of the reasons I was looking at 650s in the first place.

A friend has the following system spec.

Gigabyte 81915GMF mobo
Pentium 4 515 (2.93Ghz, 1MB L2 Cache, 533Mhz FSB)
1gb DDR-400 RAM (2 x 512MB in Dual Channel)
X1950 PRO 512MB (PCI-e)

3DMark 05 Score 6082
3DMark 05 CPU Score 3085

I think this is low, considering I get this

3DMark 05 Score 5263 (5897 @ 3.2Ghz & X850 at 572/610)
3DMark 05 CPU Score 3759 (3799 as above)

I reckon his CPU is screwing everything else up as it is forcing his system to run at 533Mhz rather than 800Mhz.

I had suggested the 650 to him as a potential replacement but as he has just bought the X1950 and a 500w PSU he is a bit reluctant.

I have offered him my 530 at a very reasonable price :) The theory is that with his FSB and RAM running at their full potential, his whole system will run substantially better.

Am I talking utter bollocks?

No.. You're right. If he upgrades to your processor, his memory will be running at full speed. He actually should have his memory running at 200 FSB (DDR400), but it looks like the motherboard doesn't support it (even though it should). It's always better to have your memory FSB and CPU FSB match since neither of them have to wait on each other. It would be very wise of him to buy your CPU (assuming it was for a reasonable price).

My roommate did the same thing. He had a GeForce 5200 and an Athlon XP 1500+(~1.2GHz). He bought a $400 X800 Pro and flashed to XT PE. My $120 Sempron 3100+ (1.8GHz) and old Radeon 9800 Pro could do just as good as him. He later bought my Sempron 3100+ (1.8GHz) and I bought a Sempron 64 3400+ (2.0GHz).
It sounds like you're in the same situation I was in. I bought my new Sempron for the extra instruction sets, 64-bit, extra 300MHz theoretical (actually 200MHz) and for the smaller core size. If the difference between the new processor and the old processor is enough to justify whatever extras come with it, go for it!

For him, the upgrade would probably be worth it. For you, it's hard to say. I've had my computer for nearly 4 years now and it still plays all the new games rather well. I don't need anything better, so I'm just sticking to what I have now. When I get some money, I'll probably wait and upgrade to an AM2+ and DDR3. Until those come out, I'll probably be fine with what I have now.

With my specs, I can still play Battlefield 2142 with medium to high settings at 1680x1050, NFS:C maxed at 1680x1050, Counter-Strike: Source maxed at 1680x1050... Sure, I don't have the best SuperPI score and the best 3dMark score, but it does what I want.

If you think you can take advantage of the new processor, I'd definitely try to sell your old processor to your friend. They'll definitely benefit from it. The only question is "Is the price worth the extra performance?" and if you can sell your old processor, the price for the new processor goes down considerably.

Edit:
My rule for upgrading:
If you can sell your old part, pretend like anything that can replace it is on sale (the discount being how much you sold your old part for).
If you can't use the extra performance, don't buy it. An example would be upgrading from a E6400 to a QX6800 when all you want to do is play Half Life 2.
If the price (including any "discount") is worth the increase in performance, buy it. An example would be upgrading from an E6400 to a QX6800 when you want to do HD Video Editing and a few other things at the same time.

[Scavar]

Nope you aren't. I learned when I was figuring out how to OC that when the FSB and RAM speeds are lower, the system kind of goes to shit(though still a hell of a lot better then that system :P)

But are you sure he can't just raise the FSB for his system without getting him a new processor? If I was you, I'd trick him into buying it anyways.

[evil bill]

But are you sure he can't just raise the FSB for his system without getting him a new processor? If I was you, I'd trick him into buying it anyways.

He is ok with changing RAM and GFX cards so he is happy to change the CPU but he isn't particularly confident mucking around in the BIOS settings. I had asked him to see if he could change the DRAM frequency so that it runs at DDR-400 but he wasnt able to. If he raises the FSB to 200, his CPU multiplier of 22 will OC it to 4.4Ghz and Im not sure it would cope with that. Might be an interesting experiment though :laugh:

This is why I was pretty sure a simple swap to a 800Hmz FSB CPU would give him a easy and noticeable increase in performance.

[xvi]

He is ok with changing RAM and GFX cards so he is happy to change the CPU but he isn't particularly confident mucking around in the BIOS settings. I had asked him to see if he could change the DRAM frequency so that it runs at DDR-400 but he wasnt able to. If he raises the FSB to 200, his CPU multiplier of 22 will OC it to 4.4Ghz and Im not sure it would cope with that. Might be an interesting experiment though :laugh:

This is why I was pretty sure a simple swap to a 800Hmz FSB CPU would give him a easy and noticeable increase in performance.

Yep. He could change the FSB to 200 and drop the multiplier down to give himself about what he had before, but it'd be easier for him to just buy yours off you. Some BIOSes (and processors) won't let you change the multiplier.

[Mussels]

Yep. He could change the FSB to 200 and drop the multiplier down to give himself about what he had before, but it'd be easier for him to just buy yours off you. Some BIOSes (and processors) won't let you change the multiplier.

I'm in agreement. If the bios cannot raise the ram speed to 200/400, then lower the multiplier and raise the FSB. If this is not possible, then the upgrade is worthwhile.

[evil bill]

Update - he opted to go for a 641. However, although we knew this was built on the 65nm process rather than the 90nm of most of the 500/600 series, we didnt appreciate that his motherboard would not support it

I don't know why Intel even called the 65nm 631-661 as part of the 600 series at all - its misleading to say the least.

[Completely Bonkers]

@evil,

I agree with Jadawin. You've got good memory and a good GPU. Your best upgrade path is:

1./ ASROCK Conroe 865 AGP. I prefer this board over the 4VSTA since you can use 4 sticks of DDR. It will let you upgrade to 2GB. With the 4VSTA you are stuck with 2 DDR sockets

With this board, you can use Core 2 Duo, even Quad Core.
You can recycle your excellent DDR
You can recycle your excellent GPU

2./ Get yourself a (new prices) Core 2 or Quad, depending on budget. A lower Core 2, E4320 (?) will overclock very nicely. Unless you are virtualising (running multiple servers on the same PC), then the E4xxxx series is good enough

3./ BIOS mod your GPU from X850Pro to X850XT - get the pipes up to 16... but don't go for the clock overclocking. Going from 12 to 16 pipes is a 33% improvement. Overclocking will get you another 10%... BUT very likely to have heat issues, especially after the 12 to 16 mod.

TOTAL COST: Cost of E4320... since you can sell your old P4 on ebay, and cover the cost of a new ASROCK mainboard.

4./ OPTIONAL... But really not necessary unless you are doing big photoshopping. Buy second hand DDR to upgrade to 2GB

NOTE on 4.

For most people, going from 1GB to 2GB is really not worth the extra spend. Better to get a very fast HDD, e.g. Seagate perp. This will improve EVERY application. Whereas, the 2GB upgrade will ONLY impact very very memory intensive applications like PS. With games? Be careful with the benchmarks you see. The max FPS does not improve, only the "minimum" FPS which is due to pagefile ad texture loading from HDD to system RAM. And this only occurs infrequently, causing the occasional momentary "lag". Improving your HDD ripping speed /pagefile is still better overall.

Only go to 2GB if you:

1./ Do a lot of photoshop editing
2./ Run multiple applications in a multi-task way, e.g. illustrator, word, excel, acrobat, etc. all being used swapping data from one to the other.
3./ Run a server

For games? 2GB is like cough syrup. It stops the occasional cough... but it isn't viagra. You aint going to be going faster or longer ;P

[evil bill]

now that is interesting - I hadn't seen that board before and will try and see if I can get one in the UK.

Unfortunately my X850 Pro has the wrong kind of fuses for the flash to 16 pipes or Id have done it by now :(

Thanks :D

[regan1985]

i didnt realise there was a board that supported bith ddr and ddr2 that mad, i might have to change to on1

[evil bill]

its a nice upgrade path feature - just to be clear though - you cant use DDR and DDR2 at the same time :laugh:

Found a UK supplier of the Conroe865PE, £35 + Delivery

http://www.aria.co.uk/Products/Components/Motherboards/Socket+775+(Intel)/+Asrock+CONROE865PE+Socket+775?productId=26543

The only thing Im a bit dubious about is that the 1066Mhz FSB is achieved by overclocking the bus from 200Mhz to 266Mhz Would this not OC my RAM to 533Mhz? I've had my RAM at 480Mhz with no issues but 533Mhz might be pushing it a bit. Or I am missing something (I dont pursue OCing much)

[Mussels]

yes you cant go slower than 1:1 on the ram - 1066FSB = DDR2 533, no way around it.