CPU Upgrade question

[nflesher87]

This is probably a really novice question to ask but, my fiance's computer is a cheapo HP her dad got her for school and is running a Sempron +3000 Palermo socket 754, I'd like to give it a little boost and noticed that newegg still carries an Athlon 3200+ for the socket (albeit way outdated and out of production)
- what kind of control will I have since it is a an HP computer and not custom built?
- will the bios need flashed or anything and is that possible with an manuf. computer?

[pt]

is the mobo from hp, or at least a half decent brand

[nflesher87]

little edit, it's actually socket 939(I just ran cpuz) and the mobo is from MSI so not bad, also I have two 512mb sticks of ran and they're only running single channel, what's up with that?

[Tatty_One]

It is unlikely, in my experience of HP systems that you will have any control over the motherboard BIOS, there probably will be updates but the boards tend to be specifically made for the system with little or no overclocking options.

If that is the case, I would seriously recommend (if you are not going to change the system/mobo) trying to get your hands on a Socket 754 Athlon 3400, at least at stock you will see more of a performance increase, there are still some around if you know where to look.

That aside of course, you could always try a decent software overclocking tool and try to overclock your FSB through Windows, "Clockgen" for example, however you must bear in mind, these do not/cannot raise voltages or even add a memory divider or lower HTT which means whilst you may get a small increase, very quickly voltages or memory/HTT speed will become a disabling factor.

[Tatty_One]

HP tend to use major manufacturers for their boards but they usually tend to be "Bios locked" made to measure version without the options. What CPU-Z are you using? If as you say your previous chip was a Semperon I dont think it can be S939 as I beleive Semperons were only compatible with Socket A and Socket 754 (and later AM2) and that would explain why you are running in single channel mode???? Check the model of your Mobo at the HP product support site, that might make things clearer.

[Tatty_One]

It seems I am wrong in as much as there was specifically an OEM Semperon designed for S939 for OEM PC builders such as HP, Fujitsu etc, I dont think however they had the on die dual memory controller which is perhaps why you are running in single mode.

[regan1985]

hp normal use branded mobos so you could always upgrade the cpu, and if you get the mobo number see if it supports x2 which there is a good chance it will and in that case get a cheap 4400 or higher

[JrRacinFan]

Just confirming your research Tatty.

You are correct about the 939 Semp. No Memory Controller on-die, and my friend had one as oem in a compaq.

Definitely second the opinion of Clockgen, I got my friends up to 2.1 Ghz, it made a difference like night and day.

[Tatty_One]

Just confirming your research Tatty.

You are correct about the 939 Semp. No Memory Controller on-die, and my friend had one as oem in a compaq.

Definitely second the opinion of Clockgen, I got my friends up to 2.1 Ghz, it made a difference like night and day.

Thank you! Regan's suggestion is good about checking the dual core support, I think his answer depends on whether the Mobo has BIOS support for dual cores and is it overclockable as in does it have voltage and memory divider options.

[suraswami]

Most probably it would take. Just the bios will report as "Unknown CPU type". If the memory is dual channel compatible then it will be recognized as dual channel.

Try running CrystalCPUID or Sandra Lite to get more details about your motherboard.

Like Dell has, HP might have a way to identify their setup by logging on to their website. Best Call tech support.:D

Just my 2 cents.

[Tatty_One]

Most probably it would take. Just the bios will report as "Unknown CPU type". If the memory is dual channel compatible then it will be recognized as dual channel.

Try running CrystalCPUID or Sandra Lite to get more details about your motherboard.

Like Dell has, HP might have a way to identify their setup by logging on to their website. Best Call tech support.:D

Just my 2 cents.

The memory even if it was dual channel would not be recognised as such on a chip that does not have a dual channel memory controller on die and therefore can only work in single channel mode.

[suraswami]

I was mentioning that if a Athlon 64 was replaced in that machine. Athlon 64 has DC Ram controller.

[Tatty_One]

I was mentioning that if a Athlon 64 was replaced in that machine. Athlon 64 has DC Ram controller.

Ahhhhh I see, no probs. :p

[nflesher87]

well here's everything that crystalcpuid is showing me, see what you guys think:

http://forums.techpowerup.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=7831&stc=1&d=1179528561

[nflesher87]

I think I've pretty much decided to just go with this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103023 processor since it's the cheapest available and will definitely show a significant performance increase over the 1.8ghz sempron w/o HTT but it raises a question: will the motherboard support the HTT of the new athlon and how do I find out?

[Tatty_One]

I think I've pretty much decided to just go with this http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819103023 processor since it's the cheapest available and will definitely show a significant performance increase over the 1.8ghz sempron w/o HTT but it raises a question: will the motherboard support the HTT of the new athlon and how do I find out?

Look on the manufacturers site, find the board and it will show a CPU compatibility list.

[nflesher87]

Look on the manufacturers site, find the board and it will show a CPU compatibility list.

ok well now I'm confused...MSI site (http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_list.asp?class=mb&cpu=1#AMD939) doesn't list AMETHYST-M as one of their products but crystalcpuid shows (as in the pic above) that it's an MSI board named AMETHYST-M and it's socket 939...what now?

[Tatty_One]

ok well now I'm confused...MSI site (http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_list.asp?class=mb&cpu=1#AMD939) doesn't list AMETHYST-M as one of their products but crystalcpuid shows (as in the pic above) that it's an MSI board named AMETHYST-M and it's socket 939...what now?

Probably because it is only made for HP or other OEM's, go to HP's site, you will find it there prob under "product support" but it's details will be linked to the model No of the PC.

[nflesher87]

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c00378480&lc=en&cc=us&x=0&dlc=en&product=1841795&lang=en&y=0
k found this page with the info on the motherboard
is that guide at the bottom of the page instructions on how to get full access to the BIOS? such and voltage/clock controls?

[Tatty_One]

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/document?docname=c00378480&lc=en&cc=us&x=0&dlc=en&product=1841795&lang=en&y=0
k found this page with the info on the motherboard
is that guide at the bottom of the page instructions on how to get full access to the BIOS? such and voltage/clock controls?

No, thats just talking about clearing jumpers if you mess up a setting in the BIOS, currently what options do you have in BIOS, do you have an "Advanced Chipest" type tab?

The good thing from that is that your mobo will support dual core upto 4800+ is if you cannot overclock it that will be a significant improvement over the Semperon, any Venice or Manchester or Windsor core sockey 939 chip has a dual channel memory controller "on die" so your memory will also work in dual mode. I would prob go for the 4600+ x2.

[Tatty_One]

No, thats just talking about clearing jumpers if you mess up a setting in the BIOS, currently what options do you have in BIOS, do you have an "Advanced Chipest" type tab?

The good thing from that is that your mobo will support dual core upto 4800+ is if you cannot overclock it that will be a significant improvement over the Semperon, any Venice or Manchester or Windsor core sockey 939 chip has a dual channel memory controller "on die" so your memory will also work in dual mode. I would prob go for the 4600+ x2.

Phew, and lastly, I have found the latest version of your BIOS, it is here:

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?softwareitem=pv-39428-1&lc=en&cc=us&lang=en&os=228&y=0&x=0&dlc=en&product=1841795

Follow the instructions CAREFULLY to flash/update but first check to make sure that this is an update to your current BIOS, it will say the version and date of the BIOS on the BIOS startup page.

As I said before, even if it does not add any overclocking options (which is quite normal for an OEM product) a 4600+ would give you a significant increase in performance but if you want a cheaper option and are happy with single core then the 4000+ San Diego can be had for £50, both of those processors stock at 2.4Gig so they will seem lightning to what you are used to.

[rhythmeister]

I'd like to think it'll run the Athlon 64s ok, maybe the mobo/ bios limit the cpu's multiplier to that of the cpu it came sold with, freaky HP stuff! U may find a better bios if you google it. Maybe Polygon at the Rebel's haven forum can offer a better bios anyway.

I'd like to wish you luck and I;d like to see what way this all works out in the end! You may be better getting a bottom end AM2 board and cpu deal from somewhere, it's cheap as chips now and there's LOTS of stock everywhere for mobo and cpus :D

[0elemental0]

This board, for all intents and purposes, is an ms-7093. They are identical except for the # of sata ports. There has been some success with flashing the MSI bios to it and unlocking the options within, but i have not done this. I myself have an a1250n, with the same board....that i have gutted. I pulled out and sold the 3800 x2 dual core for a 4800 x2 dual core and had no problems. There is a new bios version on hp's website,

http://h10025.www1.hp.com/ewfrf/wc/softwareDownloadIndex?softwareitem=pv-39428-1&lc=en&cc=us&dlc=en&product=1127366&os=228&jumpid=reg_R1002_USEN.

your board will support the opteron 185 (329$$) which is the opteron twin of the fx60, and the opteron 180 (239$$) the clone of the 4800 x2. both are still avaliable at the newegg. it will also go for the fx60, if you can find one. I have added an xfi soundcard, 2 gigs of gskill 2.5-3-3-6 ram in dual channel (removed and sold the stock), a couple of new harddrives, antec trio 650 ps, an x800gto, x1900xtx, and an x1950pro....also with no problems. i also suggest getting at least the freezer 64 pro, and a better case fan (i use the af9 from arctic).

[bigboi86]

The memory even if it was dual channel would not be recognised as such on a chip that does not have a dual channel memory controller on die and therefore can only work in single channel mode.

I don't think any 939 chips lacked dual channel memory controllers. That was socket 754 only.

[Tatty_One]

I don't think any 939 chips lacked dual channel memory controllers. That was socket 754 only.

Your quite right but he has an OEM only Socket 939 Semperon that does not have the on die controller.

[regan1985]

Your quite right but he has an OEM only Socket 939 Semperon that does not have the on die controller.


agreed i am selling a oem sameron on ebay right now,which was in my old downloading machine and its single channel.

plus i also agree flash the bios get the x2 4600 and even one more gig of ram or even better sell your ram and get 2x1g it will run better. then your machine will be a pritty good spec home pc

[nflesher87]

all good advice guys and thanks for all the input! I ended up getting an OEM A64 3400+ 2.2ghz for only $40 and free shipping at newegg :) I was seriously interested in just the cheapest option I could find (which is still going to be a huge upgrade) and I got some arctic silver 5 to put on it
I'm going to use the stock cooler so do I just wipe off the original thermal grease? (it's probably junk)
I'm going to run a PCmark05 on it in a few here for a before and after so I'll let you know how that goes

[nflesher87]

plus i also agree flash the bios get the x2 4600 and even one more gig of ram or even better sell your ram and get 2x1g it will run better. then your machine will be a pritty good spec home pc

well I've already put 2x512 in it they just aren't running dual channel yet because of the sempron and yeah I just went with an A64 3400 since it was so cheap, I'm not really going to use the comp for much, plus I'm planning to build a gaming pc next year after we get married so it's all good my MBP is powerful enough for now
I'm not going to bother selling the sempron it'll prob only go for like $15 so I'd rather hold onto it in case anything ever happens to the athlon I just bought

PCmark05 Before: 2407
3Dmark01 Before: 9101
3Dmark03 Before: 3049 (CPU score: 658)

[bigboi86]

Wow, so there was a 939 chip that didn't have a memory controller. You learn new things everyday. :)

I had a rare 3400+ venice 939 once(OEM only as well).

[Grings]

they must have a memory controller, just not a dual channel one, as i understand it, 939 motherboard chipsets dont have a memory controller on them, so how does it even work otherwise?

[Tatty_One]

Wow, so there was a 939 chip that didn't have a memory controller. You learn new things everyday. :)

I had a rare 3400+ venice 939 once(OEM only as well).

I only knew becuase I reserached when he first posted the thread, I didnt know before :D

[Tatty_One]

they must have a memory controller, just not a dual channel one, as i understand it, 939 motherboard chipsets dont have a memory controller on them, so how does it even work otherwise?

Lol, I would assume it does, we were talking about dual channel but having said that, you never know with some of these OEM only boards.

[nflesher87]

k the cpu should be here in the next couple of hours
I have a bit of a problem though, there's no floppy drive in the the comp to update the bios so is there another option? like disc or anything?

[0elemental0]

when i updated to bios 3.47 the .exe update worked on my pc. If not, you can make a bootable cd in nero or the like.

[bigboi86]

they must have a memory controller, just not a dual channel one, as i understand it, 939 motherboard chipsets dont have a memory controller on them, so how does it even work otherwise?

That was a typo, I know they have memory controllers. I meant dual chennel.

Typing on an xbox on a 20inch tv screen sucks.. lol

[nflesher87]

when i updated to bios 3.47 the .exe update worked on my pc. If not, you can make a bootable cd in nero or the like.

good deal thanks
updating bios right now via windows and just recieved the cpu going to install in a minute

[nflesher87]

bios updated, cpu installed successfull boot, not to mention the core temp is about 15C lower than with the sempron (the grease was basically oozing out the side of the sempron, applied arctic silver 5 to the new Athlon)
now I'm just running the benchmarks

[theonetruewill]

bios updated, cpu installed successfull boot, not to mention the core temp is about 15C lower than with the sempron (the grease was basically oozing out the side of the sempron, applied arctic silver 5 to the new Athlon)
now I'm just running the benchmarks

Good work mate:toast: , and good luck with those benchies.

[Tatty_One]

Job done....we can all do to sleep again, another happy customer :D

[nflesher87]

Good work mate:toast: , and good luck with those benchies.

thanks man :)

PCmark05 Before: 2407 After: 2687
3Dmark01 Before: 9101 After: 9686
3Dmark03 Before: 3049 (CPU score: 658) After: 3098 (CPU score: 757)

so the benchmarks results aren't extremely satisfying, I suppose I should've done some more cpu intensive ones but oh well it was fun

Job done....we can all do to sleep again, another happy customer :D

haha yep thanks for all the help everyone, I'm that much less of a beginner now and I have that much more to contribute to others later on!

[JrRacinFan]

Is your ram runnin in dual channel now? Notice any realtime difference in performance?

[Tatty_One]

And, did that BIOS update give you anymore options to overclock....what options do you have?

[nflesher87]

Is your ram runnin in dual channel now? Notice any realtime difference in performance?

I'm actually not sure, I tried checking (I seem to remember it always saying in the BIOS whether ram is running in dual channel mode) and there was nothing of the sort...anyone know how else to check?

And, did that BIOS update give you anymore options to overclock....what options do you have?

none at all different from what there was before, there's an "Advanced" tab but it's extremely concise and basic

[Wile E]

cpu-z will tell if it's in dual channel.

[nflesher87]

cpu-z will tell if it's in dual channel.

I used crystalcpuid and couldn't find it
also in the above, is HTT only for hyper-threading? or does it also say on with hyper transport? because it's not on

[JrRacinFan]

HTT is hyperthreading, CPU-Z will definitely tell you if in dual channel. I only used CrystalCPUID for my Skt A Sempron days to change multiplier on the fly in windows.

[nflesher87]

HTT is hyperthreading, CPU-Z will definitely tell you if in dual channel. I only used CrystalCPUID for my Skt A Sempron days to change multiplier on the fly in windows.

Single Channel as I suspected...is there any other way to get it running dual without BIOS access?

http://img.techpowerup.org/070523/untitled.jpg

and regarding the Hyper-Transport...is there any way to know for sure that it's running or is it just intuitive with HT?

[0elemental0]

just a quick check, which slots are the sticks of ram in?

[nflesher87]

just a quick check, which slots are the sticks of ram in?

oh shoot, I hadn't even thought about that! I was in a hurry when I put them in over a year ago and put them in #1 and #2 :o heh sometimes the answer is so simple...I'll switch them over to 1 and 3 in the morn...:roll:
thanks bro :laugh:

[nflesher87]

well that proved unsuccessful...no change, still running single channel and no options in the BIOS to change it, it's recognizing both and that they're in 1 and 3...

[0elemental0]

Are they the same dimms? from the same manufacturer? on my ms7093 to run in dual channel i put them in the first two slots ( a blue and a purple), NOT 1 and 3.. who knows..i am guessing it is a ram issue now, not a cpu or board issue..

[nflesher87]

Are they the same dimms? from the same manufacturer? on my ms7093 to run in dual channel i put them in the first two slots ( a blue and a purple), NOT 1 and 3.. who knows..i am guessing it is a ram issue now, not a cpu or board issue..

hm weird, I had them in 1 and 2 before and now not even 1 and 3 work to dual...and yes they are the exact same DIMMS...

[Paulieg]

There are still some good chips available for 939, however you will still have to use clockgen for any overclocking. The bios is definately locked on that board.

[nflesher87]

There are still some good chips available for 939, however you will still have to use clockgen for any overclocking. The bios is definately locked on that board.

yeah I've come to that conclusion...

anyone know what I can do about the dual channel issue?

[Tatty_One]

Do you know what Northbridge chip the board uses? It may be that the reason that they put a Single channel on die OEM Semperon in there in the first place is becasue it's an old cheapo Northbridge that only has single channel support. I am saying Northbridge, I think it's that and not the Southbridge that links the memory?

[nflesher87]

Do you know what Northbridge chip the board uses? It may be that the reason that they put a Single channel on die OEM Semperon in there in the first place is becasue it's an old cheapo Northbridge that only has single channel support. I am saying Northbridge, I think it's that and not the Southbridge that links the memory?

I'll check as soon as I get back on monday night (at the parents house for memorial day weekend)

[JrRacinFan]

Researched from HP/Compaq:

Northbridge: ATI RS482 Southbridge: ATI SB400

That particular chipset supports dual channel. Not sure of what else to help you out with.


BTW, Its basically the same chipset I have on this mobo. Although, I have never ran dual channel in it so not sure if its picky of RAM or it must be a matched pair.

[nflesher87]

Researched from HP/Compaq:

Northbridge: ATI RS482 Southbridge: ATI SB400

That particular chipset supports dual channel. Not sure of what else to help you out with.


BTW, Its basically the same chipset I have on this mobo. Although, I have never ran dual channel in it so not sure if its picky of RAM or it must be a matched pair.

hm that's so weird then...I'll take the original 2 sticks of 256mb back with me and swap those in to see if they'll run dual...would that be worth the sacrifice to leave them in and have 512 of dual channel rather than 1gb of single?

[JrRacinFan]

IMO I would take 1GB of single channel over 512 of dual anyday. Many others will agree, whereas some will not. You just have to decide what would be better.

Look at the big picture, do you multitask alot, or do you pretty much only game more? That is the main question.

[Tatty_One]

IMO I would take 1GB of single channel over 512 of dual anyday. Many others will agree, whereas some will not. You just have to decide what would be better.

Look at the big picture, do you multitask alot, or do you pretty much only game more? That is the main question.


Agreed to a point, If I was playing a game I would have the 1GB slotted in, if doing les intensive tasks maybe the 512MB in dual but all in all the 1GB in single channel is a better option.

[nflesher87]

k sounds good I'll probably just stick with the gig