OpenGL 2.1 or Dx10 - take a look yourself

[niko084]

http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647

OpenGL 2.1 FTW! :toast:

So what do you think your gaming companies so write for....

PS- OpenGL is opensource and works perfectly under Mac OS and Linux distros.

[imperialreign]

awesome - always been a supporter of OpenGL - better graphics and better performance without needing super-uber hardware


I'd love to see more game companies start using OpenGL over MS's DirectX

OGL2.1 :nutkick: DX10

[kwchang007]

I wish they could take the same screenshot for all, but opengl 2.1 looks very nice.

[Zedicus]

yup. they should all support opengl if for no other reason then porting games would b o so much easier. along with things like openal and all the cross platform tools you could seriously build a trully cross platform game fairly easily. too bad M$ fights this so much. atleast M$ decided it would be stupid to not fully support opengl in vista.

[Chewy]

it beats dx9 overall I think but the colours looks kinda bad especially in the last picture... faces look real though but in games we dont care to see faces that close up! :P

"On Windows Vista, OpenGL performance will be significantly reduced, perhaps as much as 50%." noooo

If it didnt need as much hardware.. like you could play games with integrated for openGL 2.1 than yes lol but keep gamig on PC and everything mac does better such as school work? on mac :P

BUT Im a PC user! blah!

oh I thouhgt it was one or the other.. yeah they should support this open gl on all games.. but thats microsoft for ya:shadedshu

I need sleep!

[niko084]

OpenGL 2.1 is more efficient than DX10 with actually slightly better graphics if you get down to it.

But on that note... OpenGL 3.0 is almost ready for release.....

OpenGL should be the standard if you ask me-
1- its open source
2- its cheaper
3- its almost ALWAYS been better
4- its not like Microsoft can't support it.
5- Microsoft wont even GIVE dx10 to Apple, they are trying to lock everyone into their bullshit.

Microsoft is playing a market cornering game.... Extremely greedy move, and so disgusting I am refusing to upgrade to Vista completely, I don't care what they do. If they create a REAL OS I can consider worth something I *may* consider not switching over to OSX / linux completely.

But IMO nothing microsoft has done has been worth half a crap since Server '03 and before that Dos 5.

[driver66]

http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647

OpenGL 2.1 FTW! :toast:

So what do you think your gaming companies so write for....

PS- OpenGL is opensource and works perfectly under Mac OS and Linux distros.

Actually read the whole post it was pointed out as FAKE :toast: :slap:

http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647&st=15 :toast:

[Lt_JWS]

the last OpenGL shot is of Nvidia's tech demo "human head" :roll:

[driver66]

the last OpenGL shot is of Nvidia's tech demo "human head" :roll:

:roll: :D

[AsRock]

they say 3.0 be by the end of year :)...

OpenGL all the way :). No being force to upgrade OS if more company's adapt to it.

[InfDamarvel]

Open GL has always ran better than DX10 games with about equal quality. I never thought to ponder about why developers put so much time in DX software.....o wait. Its because of Microsoft!.

[niko084]

the last OpenGL shot is of Nvidia's tech demo "human head" :roll:

Being Nvidia is one of the biggest pushers of OGL I wouldn't doubt it came from them.

Beyond that somehow I doubt that these pics are fake, that exact set is on MANY reputable sites.

[Paradox]

Those shots are real. OpenGL can do stuff like that. The thing is, OpenGL runs best on nvidia (They even have extensions in OpenGL like NV_***)as some of you might know most if not all of nvidia demos are OpenGL. The problem with it is we all don't use a nvidia GPU, DirectX is more flexible then OpenGL right now.

[niko084]

Ohh heh forgot to say here...

Many of you are probably looking for OpenGL 2.1 cards and not seeing any...

OpenGL 2.0 cards run 2.1 its just a software update.

[driver66]

http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647&st=15

Look at #24 but read it all!!

They show links and proof all over the thread!

Rendered vs. real :nutkick:

[niko084]

http://www.winmatrix.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=13647&st=15

Look at #24 but read it all!!

They show links and proof all over the thread!

Rendered vs. real :nutkick:

Check what they even show on Nvidia's site they don't say its Dx10 rendering.. They just say its from their card..

And nobody posted any "proof" that they are fake, they posted a photoshoped up copy of the pic.

Like I said before its the same set of pics posted on MANY reputable sites.

[tkpenalty]

Open GL is damn great, it makes all the old games look great :D. Still, it worries me that vista cuts down open GL performance..

[niko084]

Open GL is damn great, it makes all the old games look great :D. Still, it worries me that vista cuts down open GL performance..

It has been said by many that it does... But to me that seems like another ploy by microsoft to corner every aspect of the market. First Dx10 only for vista, and then OpenGL runs like crap under vista.... Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me....

[mandelore]

omg, *checks pants* think i messed myself.

If this is the quality of OGL (need info on frame rates expected) I would honestly dump vista, just for this (if it was implemented in games more as standard), as DX10 looks awsome, but this.. this is something else....

[niko084]

omg, *checks pants* think i messed myself.

If this is the quality of OGL (need info on frame rates expected) I would honestly dump vista, just for this (if it was implemented in games more as standard), as DX10 looks awsome, but this.. this is something else....

Well OGL is actually more efficient than Dx always has been. What they lacked until recently was audio, which now they have and from what I hear a very nice control set for audio.

We will have to wait and see if OGL takes some of the market again, and if they do I'll get a hot game and install under w/e OS it wants and post some screen shots and frames with specs.

[imperialreign]

Those shots are real. OpenGL can do stuff like that. The thing is, OpenGL runs best on nvidia (They even have extensions in OpenGL like NV_***)as some of you might know most if not all of nvidia demos are OpenGL. The problem with it is we all don't use a nvidia GPU, DirectX is more flexible then OpenGL right now


I firmly believe this, too - but, I think it has more to do with the fact that nVidia bought out 3DFX years ago - who, at the time, were the biggest supporters of OpenGL rendering, so much so they partnered with ID software and Raven software to re-release Quake and HexenII with OGL support, and helped ID develop OGL support for Quake2 for intial release. I'm sorry, but it nVidia had never *raped* 3DFX (and 3DFX customers) the way they did, I doubt they'd be in the position with OGL that they are right now. Y'know, it still kinda gets me a little ticked, OGL was the whole reason I bought a VooDoo3 back in the day - nVidia buys 3DFX, discontinues their products and cuts customer support for their hardware . . . :mad:

I'd love to see ATi start pushing forward with better OGL support, though, I think this is the one area that they're just draggin behind.

[niko084]

I firmly believe this, too - but, I think it has more to do with the fact that nVidia bought out 3DFX years ago - who, at the time, were the biggest supporters of OpenGL rendering, so much so they partnered with ID software and Raven software to re-release Quake and HexenII with OGL support, and helped ID develop OGL support for Quake2 for intial release. I'm sorry, but it nVidia had never *raped* 3DFX (and 3DFX customers) the way they did, I doubt they'd be in the position with OGL that they are right now. Y'know, it still kinda gets me a little ticked, OGL was the whole reason I bought a VooDoo3 back in the day - nVidia buys 3DFX, discontinues their products and cuts customer support for their hardware . . . :mad:

I'd love to see ATi start pushing forward with better OGL support, though, I think this is the one area that they're just draggin behind.

Actually the Fire GL/ML workstation cards run flawlessly with OpenGL.
But thats workstation cards, I don't know about the rest.

Hehe I loved my Voodoo3 16mb pci card, then it got swapped for a Ati Rage Pro Turbo 16mb!

[von kain]

yupi yahoo we can now forgot microsoft

.get a life...the open gl isn't any good for the most 2 reasons
1 it is very hardware specific a lot...
2 isn't easy to create,by that i mean that it takes a lot of code to simply things,plus you gonna need some re-training to write something really good
3 even apple strangle to make a open graphic enviroment linux wait also but no one really cares because the transform between platforms are complex to say the least

i don't love dx 10 nore the microsoft but i give them credit for something they trying to bring together consoles and pc which is good for the pc -gamers ...if you havent notice the pc games are reducing..

p.s 3dfx was not opengl not even by close it was glide a superior over dx and opengl language but it was just for 3dfx gpus

[imperialreign]

Actually the Fire GL/ML workstation cards run flawlessly with OpenGL.
But thats workstation cards, I don't know about the rest.



but, sadly, the FireGL card can get stoopid priced (I've seen anywhere between $150-$870) - on average, for the cost of one really decent FireGL, you could buy two decent DX10 compliant cards.

p.s 3dfx was not opengl not even by close it was glide a superior over dx and opengl language but it was just for 3dfx gpus

true, but Glide was based off of OpenGL to begin with - it was just much harder to fully support than OpenGL was at the time, and partly why 3DFX supported OpenGL better than any other video card manufacturer during their heyday. And you're fully correct, as best as I understand it, it's a full-blown pain-in-the-ass to code OpenGL, and you need a GPU that can support it.

But, the upside as many have mentioned, is that an OpenGL game can operate better than a comparative hardware DX game. For example . . . going back to 2004 when Doom3 rolled out on the scene, it was fully OpenGL based. A comparative DX game released that same year, with nearly exactly the same minimum system specs was Thief: Deadly Shadows {the only difference in sys specs between these two is the minimum sys RAM recommended}. Both rendered very dark, complex environments, but Doom3 runs much faster with more models, emitters, effects, etc. being rendered at a time than Thief:DS does.

[von kain]

i think you forgot the riddick game it was on opengl it was look a lot like the doom and people back then was saying that the opengl it was to strick so many of opengl games will look alike

[imperialreign]

yeah - I completely forgot about that game!

damn, that's old-schkool! :toast:

[von kain]

are you imply anything about my age ???

[niko084]

yupi yahoo we can now forgot microsoft

.get a life...the open gl isn't any good for the most 2 reasons
1 it is very hardware specific a lot...
2 isn't easy to create,by that i mean that it takes a lot of code to simply things,plus you gonna need some re-training to write something really good
3 even apple strangle to make a open graphic enviroment linux wait also but no one really cares because the transform between platforms are complex to say the least

i don't love dx 10 nore the microsoft but i give them credit for something they trying to bring together consoles and pc which is good for the pc -gamers ...if you havent notice the pc games are reducing..

p.s 3dfx was not opengl not even by close it was glide a superior over dx and opengl language but it was just for 3dfx gpus

Thats funny considering I have a basic knowledge on how to write for OpenGL, and a friend of mine has playing around with his mac years ago...

OpenGL is a cakewalk...

But beyond that yes as a majority it would not change much for people, but it would open a lot more market, there are a lot of people around that refuse to use an OS they have to pay for.

[niko084]

but, sadly, the FireGL card can get stoopid priced (I've seen anywhere between $150-$870) - on average, for the cost of one really decent FireGL, you could buy two decent DX10 compliant cards.



true, but Glide was based off of OpenGL to begin with - it was just much harder to fully support than OpenGL was at the time, and partly why 3DFX supported OpenGL better than any other video card manufacturer during their heyday. And you're fully correct, as best as I understand it, it's a full-blown pain-in-the-ass to code OpenGL, and you need a GPU that can support it.

But, the upside as many have mentioned, is that an OpenGL game can operate better than a comparative hardware DX game. For example . . . going back to 2004 when Doom3 rolled out on the scene, it was fully OpenGL based. A comparative DX game released that same year, with nearly exactly the same minimum system specs was Thief: Deadly Shadows {the only difference in sys specs between these two is the minimum sys RAM recommended}. Both rendered very dark, complex environments, but Doom3 runs much faster with more models, emitters, effects, etc. being rendered at a time than Thief:DS does.

Almost EVERY even Dx9 card supports OpenGL 2.1 so... Now that its been said guess what its easier to get one and less hardware complaint BS than Dx10...

Also its easier to program in, people are just too lazy to learn anything new..

Third Fire GL/ML cards are for workstations NOT your gaming Dx10 cards. Look at the differences sometime.... They are in two different markets don't compare apples to oranges...

I would DIE to see an 8800Ultra go up against a Fire GL 3600 in CAD.... LOL it would get is arse handed to it sideways.

[von kain]

i have the basic skill to write basic does this make me an expert? could i write a competive game ??

the answer is no opengl is nice but not attractive like dx or the xna or anything alse the majority of the users are buying vista for dx 10 ( a dumb move i could say) no one will install linux for opengl. 2.1 the main reason for that is that security not from viruses etc but that some one will make something nice for them


actually no one use just linux most of linux users are on dual boot and yes people pay for the os like it or not nothing good come from open sauce

[niko084]

actually no one use just linux most of linux users are on dual boot and yes people pay for the os like it or not nothing good come from open sauce

No comment.. I'll let people read this themselves.

*******
Something to think about though......

Are you using a web browser to view this website?
Do you enjoying using the internet?

Well I guess you should stop because it came from "open sauce"

****
Shouldn't talk about things you don't know about... There is a lot of information between the members of this forum if you open your mind and listen to people that do know.

[imperialreign]

Third Fire GL/ML cards are for workstations NOT your gaming Dx10 cards. Look at the differences sometime.... They are in two different markets don't compare apples to oranges...

I would DIE to see an 8800Ultra go up against a Fire GL 3600 in CAD.... LOL it would get is arse handed to it sideways.


yeah, I defi understand the FireGL's are workstation cards, without a doubt - but there are many people out there that don't see any difference (and that's the biggest reason why ATi doesn't advertise the FireGL's like they do the Radeon's).

Although, I am curious as I don't have much knowledge of CAD and other drafting software yet - are they really that GPU intensive, or are they more CPU? I'll be getting into AutoCAD and other software latter as I continue to pursue my engineering degree . . .

are you imply anything about my age ???

not in the least, man - just saying that was back when PC's still weren't a common household item yet; I'm old enough myself to easily remember such games and hardware from the early-mid 90's.

[niko084]

yeah, I defi understand the FireGL's are workstation cards, without a doubt - but there are many people out there that don't see any difference (and that's the biggest reason why ATi doesn't advertise the FireGL's like they do the Radeon's).

Although, I am curious as I don't have much knowledge of CAD and other drafting software yet - are they really that GPU intensive, or are they more CPU? I'll be getting into AutoCAD and other software latter as I continue to pursue my engineering degree . .

CAD is both very greatly, and more one or the other depending on what you are doing...

They don't market Fire GL/ML lines in places the normal person would notice because they are not the market for those cards... That would be like Apple having a TV ad about how great the MacPro is as a DAW or CAD system, pretty useless people in the business know, it's their job.

I build machines for 3 guys who work with CAD, they all have 4+ gigs of ram, xeon chips, and fire GL's, and scsi drives, very hot machines, they buy new ones every 6-12 months on average.

*Sorry I think I was saying ML above its MV for the 2d card*

[imperialreign]

I build machines for 3 guys who work with CAD, they all have 4+ gigs of ram, xeon chips, and fire GL's, and scsi drives, very hot machines, they buy new ones every 6-12 months on average.

wow, that's gotta be massive expensive rigs when it's said and done, what's the typical ballpark on those machines? Are they independent designers or do they work for a firm? I'm currently back in school for mechanical engineering, working towards a BA. I'm planning on staying in the automotive field, but hopefully will be in the engineering aspect of it when it's all said and done.

[niko084]

wow, that's gotta be massive expensive rigs when it's said and done, what's the typical ballpark on those machines? Are they independent designers or do they work for a firm? I'm currently back in school for mechanical engineering, working towards a BA. I'm planning on staying in the automotive field, but hopefully will be in the engineering aspect of it when it's all said and done.

Two of them work for a firm, the other one does private stuff, not sure exactly what business any of them are in directly, and I don't do much for design work on those machines, they call me and tell me most of what they need, they are not stupid when it comes to what they want in their systems.

Although this next month here one of them is considering buying a MacPro to replace his pc, in which case I will lose his machine builds... I like Mac's I do, but I don't know enough about them to support them, especially at the OS level.

Generally they spend between $5-6k

[von kain]

No comment.. I'll let people read this themselves.

*******
Something to think about though......

Are you using a web browser to view this website?
Do you enjoying using the internet?

Well I guess you should stop because it came from "open sauce"

****
Shouldn't talk about things you don't know about... There is a lot of information between the members of this forum if you open your mind and listen to people that do know.


so you agree with all the other in my post and get mad with open sauce.......
i use ie7 i like it a lot i don't hate firefox i just don't care about it but,now for the majority of open source i really like it i really do but try to compare a open source application and a "closed" source application for this example try to take open office (which i use since the star office 2) and the office 2007 i think that the money which i will spend on office 2007 will give me more compatibility more plugins easy file transfer etc

[niko084]

so you agree with all the other in my post and get mad with open sauce.......
i use ie7 i like it a lot i don't hate firefox i just don't care about it but,now for the majority of open source i really like it i really do but try to compare a open source application and a "closed" source application for this example try to take open office (which i use since the star office 2) and the office 2007 i think that the money which i will spend on office 2007 will give me more compatibility more plugins easy file transfer etc

There is no doubt that open source "software" lacks support and some nice things...

But I'll tell you now Open Office for Linux or the full release from Sun Micro systems is hardly a poor program or un-supported.

Remember that everything Microsoft has done was started from open source, including a graphical interface, the entire internet, html, the idea that Mozilla is noted in IE....

Although there are downsides to open source which there are, nobody in their right mind would say there is not... But when it comes to OpenGL it is VERY widely supported, and its easy to program for, it also almost always 1 step ahead of Direct-X. I'm not saying Direct-X is horrible but its Microsoft...... As long as its owned and controlled by them and as long as every major game company relies on it, microsoft will continue to control the gaming industry and get away with things like Vista, and not releasing the SDK's to ATi so they could start a Dx10 card lineup...

Not to mention its a TON of mess making linux support Dx.... Is it that the programmers of linux fault... No thats Microsoft, people complain because Apple/Mac's are all proprietary, what they generally fail to see is so is Microsoft, DirectX, .Net and more, and they are literally using their company size and power to force it to the point they can take a serious market monopoly... The people at the top of MS are NOT stupid, they run an incredibly powerful company, and a extremely profitable one *for the chair holders*

I among many other people just don't like the way they do business and when open source does on the rare time have something easier to implement and cheaper, and to top it all off better almost all the way around it would be nice to see MS not pull the crap of destroying its performance under their new os.

As for people that dual boot.....
I have a list of people about a mile long I talk to a lot that ONLY run open source versions of Linux and have for years... There are a lot more out there.. Yes though most do dual boot.

[von kain]

every company haves the right to do what ever is necessary for them to be secure if microsoft adopts open source the most banks or anything need security will try to find another closed company,the main reason is that if ms show her code many open source programmers will copy them on any program even solitaire not to mention the crackers ehich will bring world to its knees with kernel based virus.
microsoft is very smart not to show her code,
if you really like open source microsoft have start some open source programs for its os .

i don't have shares or i work for microsoft i just feel in my mind they are right if you feel i am wrong i am more than just willing to hear your ideas but please keep in mind that just because is free it not meaning a thing

[niko084]

Well things like like the source to their OS I wouldn't except to be open... Redhat isn't open either... Nor is Suse... Those are used by banks and such also.

But giving support for Dx under linux or mac os, would that be so bad, or how about writing .Net correctly so it works between different os's at least. I understand security and even company security to keep them alive and moving, I would hate to see MS fall as a company and dissolve, that would be very bad, but they don't need to be the pricks they are.

By the way they are in or going to be in I don't know if its started yet a HUGE class action lawsuit in the US over their .Net not being cross platform compatible for a number of things which lead to a lot of people dying. Their slack work and ways or cornering markets is a whole lot worse than games.