Opera Files Lawsuit Against Microsoft [Archive]

Jimmy 2004

12-13-2007, 05:34 PM

Opera Software, best known for its free web browser, has filed an antitrust lawsuit against software giant Microsoft for abusing its dominant position by integrating its Internet Explorer web browser into Windows. Opera, which filed the lawsuit in the EU, is asking the European Commission to force Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows or include other browsers as standard. It is also claiming that Microsoft is not following accepted standards for Internet Explorer and is calling for it to adhere to them. Opera’s Deputy General Counsel, Jason Hoida, said:
Our complaint is necessary to get Microsoft to amend its practices. The European Court of First Instance confirmed in September that Microsoft has illegally tied Windows Media Player to Windows. We are simply asking the Commission to apply these same, clear principles to the Internet Explorer tie, a tie that has even more profound effects on consumers and innovation. We are confident that the Commission understands the significance of the Internet Explorer tie and will take the necessary actions to restore competition and consumer choice in the browser market.
Some people may remember that Microsoft was forced to sell a modified version of Windows XP which excluded Windows Media Player back in 2004 after complaints about that being integrated into Windows, which was a similar case to this.

Source: PC World (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,140528-pg,1/article.html)

robodude666

12-13-2007, 05:58 PM

Think its a valid request... Most users are forced to use Internet Explorer as they don't know of others. Maybe Opera or FireFox offers those user more than IE does? Not to mention I'm tired of using IE on my school's computer...

Dangle

12-13-2007, 05:59 PM

Microsoft should include Avant browser and Firefox to comply with Opera's lame lawsuit, then Microsoft should sue Nintendo for bundling Opera with the Wii.

Most users are forced to use Internet Explorer as they don't know of others.Seriously?... That is so stupid. Nobody is FORCED to use IE. Opera is a FREE browser. If you want it, you can get it, and nobody's stopping you. If you don't like IE on your school's PC, download a different FREE browser. This lawsuit is just sour grapes. We should next sue Volkswagen for including Infinity sound systems rather than OTHER sound systems from it's competitors. This sour grapes lawsuit is absolutely bogus. I don't use IE, but MS deserves to ship their own products with their own products.

Why doesn't someone sue Apple for including Garage Band, Safari, Quicktime, etc. with their OS? Grow up Opera.

robodude666

12-13-2007, 06:02 PM

Microsoft should include Avant browser and Firefox to comply with Opera's lame lawsuit, then Microsoft should sue Nintendo for bundling Opera with the Wii.

Thats not the same though... Thats a console... I'm sure if microsoft wrote IE to not suck as much and support the wii you could be able to download or install it onto your wii...

Oh, and it isn't bundled though... You need to download/buy the browser. Same with browser for DS. You need to buy it.

FatForester

12-13-2007, 06:04 PM

Not including any browser would be a bad move, because then you have to download a browser without a browser. I think if they had the install process ask you which internet browser you would like to use, then that would work. Installing all three is pretty useless, but if you get to choose which one, that makes sense. And since Vista doesn't use IE for updating, it could definitely work there.

robodude666

12-13-2007, 06:08 PM

Yup. I think that I would a best move... I just thought about how difficult it would be to download a browser without a browser =/

Although it can run into problems down the road if microsoft ONLY includes IE, FF, and Opera... The other less-popular browsers might get upset.

Vista doesn't use IE for updating, but it does use it for modifying the updates settings... If you want to update for windows + other hardware/software. There are some programs (like Trillian) who always open a IE window, no matter what. And there are websites (like microsoft's site and school sites) that only work in IE.

Dangle

12-13-2007, 06:13 PM

Microsoft should just include IE with the OS, and allow the option to download other browsers if the user wants to.

oh wait....
they already to that.

Leon2ky

12-13-2007, 06:26 PM

I think opera needs to get it's head out of it's ass.

Why not sue Apple for 'forcing' users to use Safari?

Darkrealms

12-13-2007, 06:27 PM

Microsoft sells a product. What they choose to bundle is their decision. I'm sick and tired of products that bundle with Google toolbar or Yahoo toolbar or Netscape or . . . DVD movies shouldn't pop up with "free" trial DVD player programs . . .
Whats their point. Microsoft is not stopping Opera from running on Windows. Microsoft isn't stopping Real Player or QuickTime from running.
People have choices, if they choose not to find them then that is their fault.

Not a Microsoft/windows fan. I just use it because it is industry standard. It is what things work on.

robodude666

12-13-2007, 06:41 PM

Well, I never said I'd support the lawsuit. I said its a valid request...

Seriously?... That is so stupid. Nobody is FORCED to use IE. Opera is a FREE browser. If you want it, you can get it, and nobody's stopping you. If you don't like IE on your school's PC, download a different FREE browser. This lawsuit is just sour grapes. We should next sue Volkswagen for including Infinity sound systems rather than OTHER sound systems from it's competitors. This sour grapes lawsuit is absolutely bogus. I don't use IE, but MS deserves to ship their own products with their own products.

Why doesn't someone sue Apple for including Garage Band, Safari, Quicktime, etc. with their OS? Grow up Opera.

No, they are forced to use IE. In case you didn't know, some users don't even know about firefox or opera. Those who do and stick with IE, good for them. They looked at the options and they picked what is best for them.

I don't like IE on my school's computer, nope. Can I do anything about it? Nope. Why? Most, if not all schools have a "no download" policy... We aren't allowed to download or install any software.

The v-dub situation you mentioned is different. v-dub doesn't make the sound system... They made an agreement of some sort with infinity. Thats 100% different than this. To make your scenario similar, v-dub would have to make their own sound system. Then other companies would have to offer their own sound systems which fit into the v-dub cars. That would be the same as v-dub is forcing the people to use their sound system. If the user knows about other sound systems they can buy one and install it. But hell, why would you buy two sound systems?

Why is no one suing Apple? Well, simply... Nothing really runs on mac os...

Darkrealms

12-13-2007, 06:54 PM

Well, I never said I'd support the lawsuit. I said its a valid request...

No, they are forced to use IE. In case you didn't know, some users don't even know about firefox or opera. Those who do and stick with IE, good for them. They looked at the options and they picked what is best for them.

I don't like IE on my school's computer, nope. Can I do anything about it? Nope. Why? Most, if not all schools have a "no download" policy... We aren't allowed to download or install any software.

The v-dub situation you mentioned is different. v-dub doesn't make the sound system... They made an agreement of some sort with infinity. Thats 100% different than this. To make your scenario similar, v-dub would have to make their own sound system. Then other companies would have to offer their own sound systems which fit into the v-dub cars. That would be the same as v-dub is forcing the people to use their sound system. If the user knows about other sound systems they can buy one and install it. But hell, why would you buy two sound systems?

Why is no one suing Apple? Well, simply... Nothing really runs on mac os...

The school you are talking about chose to use IE, they could have used another but it is probably easiest to update, restore, etc for them. That is not a good example. I was "forced" to used Apples when I went to school, that didn't mean I liked their web browser or used it anywhere else.
A consumer buys a product. It is their responsibility to choose what they want. A local camera shop only sells Nikons and Olympus' does that mean I don't have other choices? If people don't do their research it is their own fault.
Type web browser in the address bar. This was my first result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser. Wow, all the primary browsers are in the first couple of paragraphs. That was even searching in an IE browser @_o

You are right, thats why Opera isn't suing Apple. Because they aren't big enough for them to whine about. And somehow that makes it ok . . .

Jimmy 2004

12-13-2007, 07:02 PM

Not including any browser would be a bad move, because then you have to download a browser without a browser.

I think that has to be one of the best counter arguments there is :laugh:

robodude666

12-13-2007, 07:26 PM

The school you are talking about chose to use IE, they could have used another but it is probably easiest to update, restore, etc for them. That is not a good example. I was "forced" to used Apples when I went to school, that didn't mean I liked their web browser or used it anywhere else.
A consumer buys a product. It is their responsibility to choose what they want. A local camera shop only sells Nikons and Olympus' does that mean I don't have other choices? If people don't do their research it is their own fault.
Type web browser in the address bar. This was my first result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser. Wow, all the primary browsers are in the first couple of paragraphs. That was even searching in an IE browser @_o

You are right, thats why Opera isn't suing Apple. Because they aren't big enough for them to whine about. And somehow that makes it ok . . .

No.. schools use IE because they have a stock install from pre-built places... I'm sure some of the techs that work at schools don't even know of FireFox or Opera.

That is exactly my argument. How would they KNOW there are other web browsers out there? A lot of people use IE because its... there. They know it is a web browser. They know it works for them. But, how do they know it is the best for them? They don't, because they may not know about other browsers that exist.

Search for web browser? Good idea... Sadly, did you notice how many people sign up on forums every year and ask simple questions like "apple v orange" or "will this C2D work on my 775 motherboard?" or the other countless number of questions that can easily be answered by a search?

@_o <-- aww!!! Very cute :) I'm going to have to borrow it.

Dangle

12-13-2007, 07:28 PM

Oh, and it isn't bundled though... You need to download/buy the browser. Same with browser for DS. You need to buy it.

So according to your argument, it would be ok for MS to disallow all browsers except for IE as long as you had to pay an extra fee to surf the web...

No, they are forced to use IE. In case you didn't know, some users don't even know about firefox or opera.

MS is not forcing people to use IE! If you want to use Firefox or Opera, you can. Almost every operating system of the face of the earth comes with a bundled browser. You can't single out MS. This lawsuit is absolutely bogus.

I don't like IE on my school's computer, nope. Can I do anything about it? Nope. Why? Most, if not all schools have a "no download" policy... We aren't allowed to download or install any software.
You must be in elementary school then? Are you in 5th grade? Even my high school allowed us to download software and install it (let alone college).

The v-dub situation you mentioned is different. v-dub doesn't make the sound system... They made an agreement of some sort with infinity. Thats 100% different than this. To make your scenario similar, v-dub would have to make their own sound system. Then other companies would have to offer their own sound systems which fit into the v-dub cars. That would be the same as v-dub is forcing the people to use their sound system. If the user knows about other sound systems they can buy one and install it. But hell, why would you buy two sound systems?

Ok, so you agree then how ridiculous this lawsuit is.

If Volkswagen wants to make their own sound system for their own cars that they are manufacturing and selling, Sony should not be allowed to come in and bully them around and force them to sell all their models with a competitor's sound system, or no sound system at all.

Scrizz

12-13-2007, 07:33 PM

how many different browsers are there anyways, people now a days sue just to sue

robodude666

12-13-2007, 07:34 PM

You must be in elementary school then? Are you in 5th grade? Even my high school allowed us to download software and install it (let alone college).

Damn, what state/country are you in?

Actually, I go to college..

They don't allow CDs either, but we can use flash drives :)
... Don't ask me, its their policy..

My highschool didn't allow for CDs/floppy/flash drives/usb devices either... They taped the mousepad over the 5.25" area of the PC cases (Dell desktop form factor). The USB ports were covered by the dell plastic logo thing.. The computers were on full lockdown also. No right click, no task manager, no run... crazy filters for every site you go to. Sites with the word "crap" or "shit" were blocked for inappropriate language. Although I managed to get around everything still.

Kreij

12-13-2007, 07:39 PM

There are a few errors in the arguments presented here ...

If people do not know that other browsers exist it is the fault of the company who makes the browser. It's called advertising. If they only advertise on the internet (which you need a browser to get to) then their marketing people need to be fired.

The comparison of VW making their own sound system is not valid as VW does not have a monopoly on its automobiles in the way that Windows does with their OS. In order for a company to compete they must make it to run on Windows.

If the makers of software want to compete with MS, then they need to create innovative advertising campaign that show that their product is clearly superior. If they did that, they would have people using their product becuase it was better not because they sued and made MS include it against their will.

Why can't Opera do a CD e-mail campaign like AOl did? Send out bajillions of CDs for free. People will try it. Guaranteed.

mdm-adph

12-13-2007, 08:07 PM

You know, the thing is, if Microsoft adhered to already accepted web standards when it came to IE, like not using proprietary technologies like ActiveX, not screwing up CSS with their shoddy support for it, not screwing up JavaScript with their shoddy support for it, I wouldn't mind it as much. As is, it's a pain in the ass to program for.

However, I don't think Opera has much hope to get this to work -- I've heard IE is so ingrained into Windows that even trying to remove it is like trying to remove the transmission from your car, and still expect it work right afterwards. Yes, you can blame Microsoft for making it that way, but it's a fact.

effmaster

12-13-2007, 08:11 PM

The school you are talking about chose to use IE, they could have used another but it is probably easiest to update, restore, etc for them. That is not a good example. I was "forced" to used Apples when I went to school, that didn't mean I liked their web browser or used it anywhere else.
A consumer buys a product. It is their responsibility to choose what they want. A local camera shop only sells Nikons and Olympus' does that mean I don't have other choices? If people don't do their research it is their own fault.
Type web browser in the address bar. This was my first result: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Web_browser. Wow, all the primary browsers are in the first couple of paragraphs. That was even searching in an IE browser @_o

You are right, thats why Opera isn't suing Apple. Because they aren't big enough for them to whine about. And somehow that makes it ok . . .

Quite right. the reason most schools use IE is because its what they are all familiar with and what is industry standard. Heck we can go on and on about how its unfair for people to be stuck with IE to begin with, its not that bad really. If a person was really pissed off with IE then they could always just go online and google: web browsers, and they would get their results.:rockout:

lemonadesoda

12-13-2007, 08:13 PM

Personally, I think these types of complaits are insane. There is one thing "tying" a user to software, ie. blocking the use of alternatives, and another which is to include functionality.

Is the NEXT complaint that Windows includes a file manager? Or a print manager? Or a clock? Or a screensaver? Or fonts?

... the list could go on.

Whatever happens, we MUSTNT have a situation where a standard windows install is as crippled/limited as a standard linux install.

Darkrealms

12-13-2007, 10:00 PM

No.. schools use IE because they have a stock install from pre-built places... I'm sure some of the techs that work at schools don't even know of FireFox or Opera.

That is exactly my argument. How would they KNOW there are other web browsers out there? A lot of people use IE because its... there. They know it is a web browser. They know it works for them. But, how do they know it is the best for them? They don't, because they may not know about other browsers that exist.

Search for web browser? Good idea... Sadly, did you notice how many people sign up on forums every year and ask simple questions like "apple v orange" or "will this C2D work on my 775 motherboard?" or the other countless number of questions that can easily be answered by a search?

@_o <-- aww!!! Very cute :) I'm going to have to borrow it.
Here's another one for you @-;-- try it on your girl/boyfriend.

That was my point. They use what is easy and works (maybe not the best). They don't want to have to go around to each system and run an Opera install. That's a waste of time. Its also a waste of time to go around and clean up/reinstall computers after people polute them. My grade,high,colleges all allowed floppys and cds (usb wasn't around for some of those . . .).
Quite right. the reason most schools use IE is because its what they are all familiar with and what is industry standard. Heck we can go on and on about how its unfair for people to be stuck with IE to begin with, its not that bad really. If a person was really pissed off with IE then they could always just go online and google: web browsers, and they would get their results.:rockout:
Thank you thats what I was saying. /sigh Oh well.
I didn't even google it (that could take way too much techyness, ya know ; ) I just used the address bar, oh and I msn searched it and got the same thing on top ; p

Here's a thought Opera. Ever hear of a small insignificant company called Intuit (http://www.intuit.com/products/)? Maybe a stupid little program called Quicken, and even better an useless little business program called QuickBooks? Oh and a massive over advertised product that rocks Microsoft Money??
Oh wait . . . didn't Microsoft end up bundling Quicken/QuickBooks into some of their releases??? GETTING THE HINT OPERA???? MAKE A PRODUCT THATS REALLY WORTH IT.

xvi

12-13-2007, 10:49 PM

Opera, which filed the lawsuit in the EU, is asking the European Commission to force Microsoft to unbundle Internet Explorer from Windows or include other browsers as standard.

WHAT?! Do you know how many Open Source browsers there are?! Vista is going to end up coming on two discs.

Do they realize how tightly interwoven Internet Explorer is? You can't just pull that out. It's like pulling a plant. You're either going to snap it off at the root (and still have Internet Explorer bundled in there), or you're going to end up with a giant hole.

It's like asking Debian/Ubuntu to please remove apt-get because RPM isn't included. (Even though that wouldn't really work).

If Opera wants links on the desktop to download their software, then they can do it the normal way. PAY MICROSOFT TO PUT THEM THERE, NOT by going through some two-bit lawsuit.

And as I said to my roommate, if IE is ripped out of Windows, how do you get Opera.
Oh, that's simple, just go to www.opera.com. IN WHAT?!

I could go on forever. *sigh*

wazzledoozle

12-13-2007, 10:53 PM

Opera will lose this lawsuit just as they should.

No one is forcing you to use IE. Microsoft provides it as a part of its operating system. A web browser is a necessary component of such software.

You can't justify the argument that Windows should come with other choices pre-installed as well. Windows is not Linux, it's a proprietary platform that Microsoft can do whatever they want with.

Kreij

12-13-2007, 10:58 PM

I agree that Microsoft should be able to include their browser as it is a utility, not an application.
But also remember that when MS includes something for free, every other competitive product goes belly up. Let's say that MS inncluded MS Office for free. How long do you think any other office suites would last?
Due to it's controlling interest in the OS market, MS has an unfair advantage when talking about additional applications. This is where the anti-competitive laws kick in, so that MS does not simply squeeze everyone else out of the market.

wazzledoozle

12-13-2007, 11:03 PM

There is nothing unfair about their advantage, they have earned it through years of work. They simply have a lot of advantage.

An office suite is not necessary to the modern needs of an operating system. Not everyone needs excel, powerpoint, access, visio etc. But EVERYONE needs a web browser these days. Basic word processing is included with notepad/wordpad, but the office suite is a seperate software package.

Including something for free does not squeeze everyone else out of the market. Paint hasn't stopped Photoshop, windows media player hasn't stopped Itunes, wordpad hasn't stopped Office/Adobe, IE hasn't stopped Firefox, etc etc etc.

It's as simple as: if the application is easy enough to use for its intended purpose; then the user won't seek out a replacement. Obviously user's seek more features and usability with the above programs.

I've used Opera and didn't like it. The interface was way too cluttered, and not very intuitive. Loaded slower than Firefox as well. (At the time, maybe 2 years ago).

imperialreign

12-13-2007, 11:15 PM

Internet Explorer is to Windows what oil is to your car's motor. It'll run for a little while without it, but be prepared for the ensuing chaos.

Opera should grow up, IMO.

effmaster

12-13-2007, 11:18 PM

Internet Explorer is to Windows what oil is to your car's motor. It'll run for a little while without it, but be prepared for the ensuing chaos.

Opera should grow up, IMO.

lol nice analogy:toast::toast:

theonetruewill

12-13-2007, 11:30 PM

If I buy an opera system then I want it to have every basic thing that I NEED to have to use a computer acceptably. I don't see why Microsoft should not be able to bundle Internet Explorer, Media Player, Wireless Zero, Email, Movie Maker, and other basic programs into it's OS. If I didn't have these I would frankly;y be quite pissed. What I hate even more is that these companies only ever tackle Microsoft. I'm not their massive fan by any means, but I;m also not someone who thinks it's cool to bash Microsoft, just because everyone else seems to do so, and therefore it's the 'done thing.' NO, I like my bundled programs, and for the newbie they are easy to use. Why should people have to buy or download other programs just to make their computer perform the basic functions.

If Opera was infinitely better than IE then it would be more popular than it is now. The fact is that it isn't and although I've tried it, and liked it, I didn't choose it over FF. Why? > because I didn't like it's style and plugins compared to that of FF. Why did I choose FF over IE, because I hated the security vulnerabilities in IE6 and I loved FF tabs and plugins. Why not IE7 over FF, I got used to FF and I love its customization potential. In the end it's a choice, but that does not mean you should not be able to have the basic bare minimum on your OS already. If Opera want to gain a bigger market share, then they need to WOW people. They aren't exciting enough people, so they are not gaining a large proportion of the market share. Yes IE6/7 does, and it's largely because it's bundled, but why then do all the people on TPU!, most who have at least a little knowledge on browsers, still not use Opera as there own? Well, because they like their own one or they have changed already.

And why the hell do people not attack Apple for their bundled programs, because Apple is cool and far better for everyone, and thats ...why it holds a smaller market share..... Doesn't hold water really does it. If you attack M$, then attack all OS's.:mad:
Stop complaining and make a fantastic product, then I might use it.:shadedshu

Sorry for my little rant!

ex_reven

12-13-2007, 11:32 PM

No.. schools use IE because they have a stock install from pre-built places...

No, they are built that way to ensure computer/network security. If they were to allow students to install different browsers (and other software for that matter) not only does it mean the IT Department needs to keep a whole new list of software updated and configured, but they also need to deal with the new vulnerabilities introduced by this new software. It just needlessly complicates things when all the student should really be worrying about is accessing the internet and visiting the correct content, rather than wasting their education by chatting or myspacing in schools and wasting tax payers money.

On top of that, the extra applications add a whole new level of bloat, bundled toolbars and all that other unneccesary crap. Im a firefox user, but I think that IE serves its purpose well, and with the correct precautions it functions properly without any issues. Firefox has its quirks at times, and the performance difference really isnt that great anyway.

wazzledoozle

12-13-2007, 11:49 PM

No, they are built that way to ensure computer/network security. If they were to allow students to install different browsers (and other software for that matter) not only does it mean the IT Department needs to keep a whole new list of software updated and configured, but they also need to deal with the new vulnerabilities introduced by this new software. It just needlessly complicates things when all the student should really be worrying about is accessing the internet and visiting the correct content, rather than wasting their education by chatting or myspacing in schools and wasting tax payers money.

On top of that, the extra applications add a whole new level of bloat, bundled toolbars and all that other unneccesary crap. Im a firefox user, but I think that IE serves its purpose well, and with the correct precautions it functions properly without any issues. Firefox has its quirks at times, and the performance difference really isnt that great anyway.

Exactly.

You cant update Firefox through WSUS, and manually deploying browser patches to hundreds or thousands of machines causes a lot of logistic headaches. (Not to mention bandwidth issues when 500 Firefox sessions automatically download a patch at the start of the day when students are getting online.)

User's ignore update prompts, and over time you will have 50 different revisions of the same browser across your network creating a giant security issue along with other problems that can develop by running more than one version of the same software.

Dangle

12-14-2007, 01:29 AM

Opera will lose this lawsuit just as they should.Dude, you never know... those euro-trash are crazy!!!

wazzledoozle

12-14-2007, 01:31 AM

Oh crap they filed it in Europe. The outcome is a tossup then.

effmaster

12-14-2007, 05:30 AM

Oh crap they filed it in Europe. The outcome is a tossup then.

lol those crazy europeans with their crazy views of the world.:laugh::laugh:

Dangle

12-14-2007, 05:41 AM

The funny thing is, every time I go to Europe, someone takes a whack at how people in America sue everyone for everything. Their freedom to sue anybody for anything is becoming more liberal then the US.

imperialreign

12-14-2007, 05:46 AM

yeah - but here in the US, it had actually gotten so bad at one point that they had to enact a "frivilous lawsuit" law - which pretty much throws out all the petty lawsuits before they ever get to go before a judge.

now all we need is a "common sense" law which would throw out lawsuits that should just be common sense (like a lady suing McDonald's because the coffee she ordered at the drive through spilt in her lap going down the road and she was burned - but she claimed she didn't realize the coffee was hot). Those two laws combined would get the US back on track.

btarunr

12-14-2007, 06:13 AM

Opera gets my middle finger for sure, winning that lawsuit is a light-year away.

A web-browser, a media player, an email client are bare minimum that an OS can provide the user with, when he boots the OS for the first time. You can't expect Windows to be like DOS. Gawd!

If people don't know Opera (and other IE alternatives) exist, then it's Opera and not Microsoft to blame. There's a little something known as advertising. Look at Mozilla and their Spread Firefox campaign. Mozilla didn't have to put too much money into it. It was/is a collaborative effort, it worked. And now people like me are using perhaps the most exotic browsers of them all, Mozilla Seamonkey.

That's what sets Mozilla apart from Opera. Mozilla is proactive, while Opera is like a cribby bitch after it dropped its icecream and blamed someone else for it.

As for MS, well they did what they had to. After IE6, they put in a decent effort in making IE7. Atleast they lived upto bundling something with their OS. Why doesn't Opera sue Apple, Red Hat, Sun, SuSE, etc for bundling browsers other than Opera? Go to see, Opera makes browsers for pretty-much every platform. They've been arrogant snitches.

A few years ago when the Firefox was teething and gaining popularity, when asked to comment on the rise of Firefox, they said "Mozilla? hah! we don't see how a two-bit unix browser maker can put us off".

Opera, this is from Mozilla, Microsoft and prettymuch every company that did its job and minded its own business:

:nutkick:

Scrizz

12-14-2007, 01:57 PM

I don't like Opera browser.

Davidelmo

12-14-2007, 02:56 PM