Its a toss up between 2 8800gt

[KieranD]

Im stuck i found 2 really cheap 8800gt and i know that they perform better than the 3870.
I have a crossfire board but dont plan on using crossfire anytime soon so i guess im getting a 8800gt as its more economical.

Its the PALIT/Xpertvision 8800GT 512MB with a non stock cooler or the Sparkle SILENT 8800GT 512MB with obv silent cooling.
The Sparkle is about £147 while the PALIT/Xpertvision is around £137
I wanted these as i cant afford a 1gb 8800gt.
I wanted a card with a non stock cooler as the stock 8800gt cooler sucks.
I could get a normal Sparkle tho with the stock cooling.

What do you guys think?

[Jelle Mees]

Just buy the PALIT/Xpertvision.

PS: The 8800GT 1GB is a waiste of money. The 8800GT would need 512bit in order to use that memory properly.

[ShadowFold]

Two HD 3870's are usually better than two 8800GT's due to better scaling. But if you want good Nvidia brands get a Palit, and yea the 1gb is a rip off just get the 512's.

[Jelle Mees]

Two HD 3870's are usually better than two 8800GT's due to better scaling.

That's true.

In more than 90% of the tests, Crossfire scale more better than SLI. In 60% of the tests, CrossFire scale up more than 50% performance compare to single card. But in only 40% of the tests SLI can scale up to 50%.

It wouldn't be dumb to buy a 3870, overclock it to 8800GT performance and then start saving for another 3870...

[OnBoard]

If that sparkle is the coolpipe 3 version, it sucks more than the stock cooler ;) ECS has one with Accelero S1, no reason to go sparkle. And Palit should be nice, I've been just waiting for it a month..

[Xaser04]

Two HD 3870's are usually better than two 8800GT's due to better scaling.

They may scale better but the 8800GT SLI setup will still be faster (going by the techreport review of the HD3870X2 which shows the 8800GT SLI setup to completely trounce everything in most of the benchmarks)

EDIT: Sorry I forgot the link:

http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/13967/6 (COD4)
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/13967/7 (HL2:EP2)
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/13967/8 (ET:QW)
http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/13967/9 (Crysis and UT3)

[Wile E]

Just buy the PALIT/Xpertvision.

PS: The 8800GT 1GB is a waiste of money. The 8800GT would need 512bit in order to use that memory properly.
No, 1GB isn't a waste of money on high res gaming with games such as Crysis. Crysis easily uses more than 512MB of vram. And the bus width isn't gonna effect how much ram it can use.


I say get the Palit card. I love mine so far. Mine loads to about 60C OCed. If it's the Palit I'm thinking of, it also has 3 phase power, which is better than the reference design. Do you have a link to the exact cards you're looking at?

[will]

The Sparkle is about £147 while the PALIT/Xpertvision is around £137


whoa where did u get those prices?! thats a gd deal for a gt in the uk!

[Jelle Mees]

No, 1GB isn't a waste of money on high res gaming with games such as Crysis. Crysis easily uses more than 512MB of vram. And the bus width isn't gonna effect how much ram it can use.

You are not going to like the facts:

http://omploader.org/vYmlp

Compare 1024MB and 512MB, it is actually no gap between them if we ignore some sick games like PT Boats. You may notice there is average 10.47% boost in the test. But without PT Boat it only lead 5.5%, and that's only on settings with unplayable framerates...

And you only see a difference on 1920x1200 with 4xAA on Crysis! That's unplayble on every computer man...

Are you willing to pay extra money for a card that ony performs better at settings that are completely unplayable?

The bottom line is that the stock GeForce 8800 GT 512MB is simply an outstanding performer, adding another 512MB of memory just doesn’t yield the performance boost people expect...

1024MB would require 512bit ( in fact, 640bit would be eaven better ) to work properly.

[KieranD]

Sorry still have to add on shipping but i found one for £147 including shipping and vat the others although cheaper excluded vat meaning it ended up not worth it.

The sparkle is a passive cooler and its a heat bucket that could boil water its way over 100c.
The palit/xpertvision tho has a better cooler comes with tomb raider a hdmi to dvi connector and other cables its cheapo and has a better cooler that is quieter and cooler. Not bothered about heat staying in the case and not being exhausted because my x800gto dosnt fan air out and neither does the stock 8800gt thanks for telling me that the 1gb wont be worth the extra money i was worried for a minute that i was spending less for nothing.

Oh and just wanted to ask if it would be much of a bottleneck on my pc if its a few frames then not botherd although i have a Crossfire board i dont plan on using crossfire it was just worth the price £45 i paid for the mobo. I dont want to buy a 3870 if its a weaker card than the 8800gt i just wanted a 3870 because it was cheap but since i can get the 8800gt for £147 then it a better deal.

[trog100]

i have said this before.. if the card aint got the grunt to run the resolutions and settings that might need the extra memory its waste of time having it..

so 1 gig on a 8800gt is a rip off.. its always been used as a selling point and folks who dont know any better always fall for it..

i have a 1 gig grafix card sounds good to others who dont know any better..

trog

[Jelle Mees]

Oh and just wanted to ask if it would be much of a bottleneck on my pc if its a few frames then not botherd although i have a Crossfire board i dont plan on using crossfire it was just worth the price £45 i paid for the mobo. I dont want to buy a 3870 if its a weaker card than the 8800gt i just wanted a 3870 because it was cheap but since i can get the 8800gt for £147 then it a better deal.

You are lucky. I've build a PC last week with the 4600+ and the 3870 and it had about 9400 3DMarks in 3DMark06, overclocked it had about 9960 3DMarks.

8800GT should give you about 1000-1500 more in 3DMark06.

PS: The 4600+ was 8% overclocked. ( simple bios setting on the Asus mainboard )

Is there a bottleneck? Not really. Will the card run much better on faster CPU, offcourse!

Your next upgrade should be a Phenom CPU ;)

[KieranD]

Yeah go phenom! Like i said i got a MSI Crossfire Platinum K9A for £45 which was a superb deal!
Id rather max out this board i got than buy new parts for a new one. Id have to redo my whole system if i wanted a Intel cpu and the Phenoms out later this year seem good not as good fast as the Intel stuff but still a good upgrade from a x2 4600+.

Hmmmn not botherd about 3d marks or benchmarking general just want to know if it will make my games run faster and look nicer. Which it will obviously do.

[Wile E]

You are not going to like the facts:

http://omploader.org/vYmlp

Compare 1024MB and 512MB, it is actually no gap between them if we ignore some sick games like PT Boats. You may notice there is average 10.47% boost in the test. But without PT Boat it only lead 5.5%, and that's only on settings with unplayable framerates...

And you only see a difference on 1920x1200 with 4xAA on Crysis! That's unplayble on every computer man...

Are you willing to pay extra money for a card that ony performs better at settings that are completely unplayable?

The bottom line is that the stock GeForce 8800 GT 512MB is simply an outstanding performer, adding another 512MB of memory just doesn’t yield the performance boost people expect...

1024MB would require 512bit ( in fact, 640bit would be eaven better ) to work properly.
But if you revisit the results, they're all over the charts. That tells me there's an inconsistency somewhere in the tests. And a faster memory interface won't help the 1GB. It's not the bottleneck, the gpu is. If you strapped the g92 GT core and 1GB of mem to a 1024bit interface, it wouldn't make much of a difference at all. Ocing hasn't been taken into consideration either. Upping the gpu clocks will relieve the gpu bottleneck some, and I'm willing to bet the gap between the 512 and 1GB will start to widen.

The only tests I'll trust are by trustworthy members of this forum. Unfortunately, I don't currently have a high res screen, so I can't run my card for comparison.

And yes, the 1GB is worth it to me, as I'm a benchmarker more than a gamer. Doesn't matter anyway, mine didn't cost me a dime.

[Jelle Mees]

The only tests I'll trust are by trustworthy members of this forum.

You think that he is going to fake 50+ bechmarks? He doesn't gain anything by doing that...

You didn't have to pay for yours, but don't recommend people to waiste their money because you chose to ignore the facts...

[Wile E]

You think that he is going to fake 50+ bechmarks? He doesn't gain anything by doing that...

You didn't have to pay for yours, but don't recommend people to waiste their money because you chose to ignore the facts...I didn't say he faked it. I said it was inconsistent. I never implied it was intentional.

Now, he spent all this time benching, but why didn't he do the benches with overclocking? I'm willing to bet the difference are more noticable at higher core speeds.

[Wile E]

And to point out the inconsistencies I mentioned, if the 1GB card can pull ahead that far in PT Boats, why not other games? At 1280x1024 4xAA, it means the difference between playable, and unplayable.

Perhaps drivers come into the equation as well, or game bugs, or any number of explanations.

[Jelle Mees]

And to point out the inconsistencies I mentioned, if the 1GB card can pull ahead that far in PT Boats, why not other games?

Because the other games that he tested didn't use more then 512MB. That can't be to hard to understand...

It's not because Nvidia released 640MB and 768MB cards that you have to beleave that games actually require that amount of memory.

PT Boats is just the only game that needs more then 512MB to store the textures.

And about those inconsistencies, you do know that the 8800GTS 320MB was somethimes faster then the GTS 640MB in games that didn' require more then 320MB, don't you?
Not all cards are exactly the same. There are some benchmarks where the GT 512MB is 0.x% faster then the 1024MB version, but it would probably not be the case if he ran the same benchmark again.

Somethimes when you run 3DMark you get 15212, another time you get 15199, does that mean that the card was slower? Offcourse not...

[Jelle Mees]

Maybe you start beleaving me once you see other reviews.
Take the 2900XT 1024MB review for example:
http://www.ixbt.com/video3/r600-2-d.shtml#p18

The only reason why you see ANY difference is because the memory on the 1GB version is clocked at 2000Mhz...

[Wile E]

Because the other games that he tested didn't use more then 512MB. That can't be to hard to understand...

It's not because Nvidia released 640MB and 768MB cards that you have to beleave that games actually require that amount of memory.

PT Boats is just the only game that needs more then 512MB to store the textures.

People have logged Crysis using more, especially in DX10 under Vista.

Which leads me to another question, what were the in-game/bench settings? If he turned down some of the sliders, that's kinda tilting the scale toward the 512MB. If you don't max the game, it's not a level playing field.

Besides that, do you really believe that games in the near future won't have a use for 1GB, especially in DX10?

This same debate happened when 512MB cards launched, but they quickly fulfilled their purpose.

The 8800GT is a powerful enough card to use 1GB in the right circumstances. Throw in some OCing, and you'll have even more headroom.

[Wile E]

Maybe you start beleaving me once you see other reviews.
Take the 2900XT 1024MB review for example:
http://www.ixbt.com/video3/r600-2-d.shtml#p18

The only reason why you see ANY difference is because the memory on the 1GB version is clocked at 2000Mhz...
The gap grew with later drivers and newer games. (I also own a 2900XT 512MB)

[Jelle Mees]

Offcourse Crysis logged more in DirectX 10 on high resolutions, but is it playable? Nope!

I've already told you this, 1024MB only provides better framerates on settings that are unplayable. You like Crysis on 20fps, be my guest, you go play it on 20fps. I prefer 35fps...

By the time all games use about 512MB ore more, the 8800GT will not be powerfull enough...

No point in convincing you...I could show you 50 reviews but clearly you think that you have more knowledge ( without testing it yourself offcourse ) then all reviewers combined. All 1024mb reviews are biased, all the reviewers are pure evil, they don't want people to know the TRUE power of 1024mb...:rolleyes:

[Wile E]

Offcourse Crysis logged more in DirectX 10 on high resolutions, but is it playable? Nope!

I've already told you this, 1024MB only provides better framerates on settings that are unplayable. You like Crysis on 20fps, be my guest, you go play it on 20fps. I prefer 35fps...

By the time all games use about 512MB ore more, the 8800GT will not be powerfull enough...

No point in convincing you...I could show you 50 reviews but clearly you think that you have more knowledge ( without testing it yourself offcourse ) then all reviewers combined. All 1024mb reviews are biased, all the reviewers are pure evil, they don't want people to know the TRUE power of 1024mb...:rolleyes:And again, what happens when you OC the the GT?

And what were the in game settings he used? Without that info, you have nothing to base your argument on. How do you know slightly higher settings wouldn't yield playable framerates on the 1GB, but not on the 512MB? The answer is you don't. The one game that did have settings that took advantage of the extra framebuffer, clearly showed the 1GB's advantage.

And you're right, you won't convince me by showing reviews with no info to back it up. Give all the details, and I can be persuaded much more easily, much more effective than smartass comment and rolleye smilies that clearly demonstrate your superior intellect.

[Threeflow]

1GB is a waste on the 8800GT. The vast majority of frame rate scores from the benchmarks listed above are well within the margin of error.

Yes, its true that the games will eventually take advantage of 1GB on the card (or at least more than 512MB)... but changes like that don't happen overnight, and by the time those sorts of games become commonplace, the 8800GT will be 2-3 years old and too slow of a GPU to handle them anyway, by then we'll have the 9800GT or 10800GT or what have you.

If you want to play Crysis at 1920x1200 at 19fps instead of 14fps, sure get the 1GB card. Who in their right mind would? Either of those frame rates are unplayable for a FPS game anyway. The two cards perform as close to identical as benchmarks can reveal at all of the playable resolutions.

1GB is for bragging rights only, but even then you'd have to be bragging to people who are as clueless you if you buy the card, else they would just laugh in your face.

[Wile E]

1GB is a waste on the 8800GT. The vast majority of frame rate scores from the benchmarks listed above are well within the margin of error.

Yes, its true that the games will eventually take advantage of 1GB on the card (or at least more than 512MB)... but changes like that don't happen overnight, and by the time those sorts of games become commonplace, the 8800GT will be 2-3 years old and too slow of a GPU to handle them anyway, by then we'll have the 9800GT or 10800GT or what have you.

If you want to play Crysis at 1920x1200 at 19fps instead of 14fps, sure get the 1GB card. Who in their right mind would? Either of those frame rates are unplayable for a FPS game anyway. The two cards perform as close to identical as benchmarks can reveal at all of the playable resolutions.

1GB is for bragging rights only, but even then you'd have to be bragging to people who are as clueless you if you buy the card, else they would just laugh in your face.Then explain to me the spread on PT Boats. Admittedly, Crysis is a crappy game to use as an example. It's poorly optimized all the way around.

[Threeflow]

this PT Boats game is one such game that can take advantage of more than 512MB of memory on the video card. Seems rather simple to me.

[Jelle Mees]

And again, what happens when you OC the the GT?

An OC does not increase texture usage. An OC will give you 22FPS instead of 20 :D

1024MB requires more shaders, faster core and at least 512mbit if you want acceptable framerates.

The 9800 will be 1GB, that one will allow playable framerates on settings that are unplayable with the 8800gt, I think that we can all be sure of that...

[Wile E]

An OC does not increase texture usage. An OC will give you 22FPS instead of 20 :D

1024MB requires more shaders, faster core and at least 512mbit if you want acceptable framerates.

The 9800 will be 1GB, that one will allow playable framerates on settings that are unplayable with the 8800gt, I think that we can all be sure of that...My point is that it doesn't necessarily require more shaders if you OC. All you need is to perform more ops in the same amount of time. OCing, more shaders, a faster interface (in some cases), etc. can all lead to this. This is why I really want to see the difference when you introduce OCing. Somehow I think the gap between 600/1800/1500 and 775/2100/1902 is more than 2fps. lol.

And I'm sticking by my claim that a 512bit interface will make no difference at all.

I'm really starting to think I may have to put a better quad on the back burner, and buy a hi-res screen so I can actually test this stuff on my own.

[ChillyMyst]

WileE, maby you should just get a nice projector or hdtv that can do 1920x1080 and use that to test ;)

and what WileE says is true, overclocking a 256mb 9800pro let it take advantege of the extra 128mb ram when normaly the diffrance between 128 and 256mb 9800pro cards was NILL, and i agree wileE your listed clocks will give more then 2fps boost ;)

as to crysis, i tryed it again today, it really needs more patching to get it optimized, but really so did farcry when it came out so im not to worried about that at the moment.

If a game can take advantege of 1gb then a 1gb card will help, same was true back when doom3 came out, ultra settings only worked on 512mb cards, it loaded uncompressed textures into the ram, giving slitly better quility, 256 and 128mb cards of the day couldnt cope with those settings without using agp texturing and that kiled perf.

please Jelle Mees learn more about videocards b4 you post FUD as fact, i have been a pc gamer since b4 the voodoo1 came out, i have had cards from the s3 virge to the 8800gt, i have vast experiance with what extra ram can do for even a chip that isnt the greatist, example i had a 256mb 9600nonpro, the card couldnt in most cases use the extra 128mb ram it had, BUT in some games the extra ram put me in a better possition then a 9600xt 128mb card(i was overclocked past pro core speeds) one of the beta games i was a tester for at the time acctualy reccomended 256mb because the game was able to buffer all its textures to videoram for each level/area using the extra 128mb of ram, this really showd when u cranked quiltity up at 1280x1024(high res for those days) i was as much as 15fps faster then the 9600xt users in the same beta.

granted the extra ram isnt usefull in most tested games but new games come out all the time, and with 1gb avalable im sure some companys will start taking advantege of it..

sall good i have a 8800gt 512 tho, (720/1775/2100) just need a better then stock cooler, or to go over and kick wileE's arse and steal his 8800gt 1gb card :P

[Jelle Mees]

You can say all you want. The fact remains that the 8800GT 1024MB only gives an advantage on unplayable settings...an OC isn't gonna change that...

[Wile E]

You can say all you want. The fact remains that the 8800GT 1024MB only gives an advantage on unplayable settings...an OC isn't gonna change that...That's in one, poorly optimized game. And still, have you seen an OCed test between a 512MB and 1GB GT to confirm?

EDIT: If not, you can't say for sure the 1GB is a waste of money. And to be fair, I can't say it is worth the money.

[ChillyMyst]

WileE give up,-removed-, just let it go, he wont ever see that just because one poorly optimized game dosnt get an advantege from the extra ram that other games do, he also thinks that poorly writen/done reviews by sites like [H] are valid........its like somebody whos used vista for 5 minutes saying it has no problems at all because they where able to check their email just fine.

some people will belive what they want to, just like a chick i know belived her BF when he said an 8600gts was better then a 3850 because radeons suck......ROFL

im just helping a buddy get his father in law setup so he can game, he has a crappy old celeron 2.4gz with a 9200.....this is gonna take some work :P

[Tatty_One]

The reason why 1GB on the 8800Gt does not perform well is fairly simple, at a GPU speed of 600mhz there is just not enough GPU power to process the larger flow of data quick enough to bring any benefit and as the charts that have been posted show, it can have a detremental effect...... whoever says that overclocking the GPU wont help is wrong (IMO), at a GPU speed of 700Mhz (with shaders linked) the performance of the 1GB increases at 16xx x 10xx by upto 17% in crysis for example, how do I know that? well I had an Asus 512MB 8800GT before the Palit 1GB in the same system and in the Crysis Demo with all settings the same I saw an improvement on max detail with 4x AA of upto (max) 11FPS and an average of 7FPS.......now thats fairly substantial but I stress thats max everything and with max everything (in Crysis demo) the difference is almost beetween a non playable game and a playable one. I used FRAPS to measure that, crysis I beleive, even at 1280 x 1024 with high detail but NO AA uses more than 512MB of memory.

I will also go so far as to say, my Palit 1GB card performs better with high detail in Crysis than my G92 8800GTS with it's extra shaders and faster clock speeds. I appreciate that I am talking just one game here and I did not try the comparison at the time on any others so the same MAY NOT apply to other games, although, contrary to what one person said, I would find it hard to beleive that any modern 1st person game on a resolution of 16xx x 10xx and above on max detail and max AA would not use more than 512MB GDDR period.

If anyone would like me to make comparisons between the 1GB 8800GT and the 512MB 8800GTS (clocked at same speeds) in any other game (I dont still have the Asus 8800GT) I have I would be more than happy to do so, the games I have at the moment that are fairly recent, apart from Crysis are:

Supreme Commander
COD4
Stalker
Company of Heroes

It may be interesting to see if the slower 1GB card can beat the faster 512MB card in any of these games with max everything at 1600 resolutions, just shout if you want some benches :D

[Jelle Mees]

It's funny that you instult me, me, someone who uses reviews to defend his statements. Someone who has owned and/or tested practicly every card that gets released.

I did simular tests as HardOCP to test if they were honest.

But you guys, the only thing you can say is "I think that" because you haven't tested ****, youf all ignorant. You instult me while you don't have a single review that shows you might my correct.

I got reviews to backup your statements, what do you guys have? God??? Are you guys all phychic???

[ChillyMyst]

You are lucky. I've build a PC last week with the 4600+ and the 3870 and it had about 9400 3DMarks in 3DMark06, overclocked it had about 9960 3DMarks.

8800GT should give you about 1000-1500 more in 3DMark06.

PS: The 4600+ was 8% overclocked. ( simple bios setting on the Asus mainboard )

Is there a bottleneck? Not really. Will the card run much better on faster CPU, offcourse!

Your next upgrade should be a Phenom CPU ;)

8% overclock......pathetic, you need to learn to overclock better.

you also need to learn that 3dmark dosnt mean shit in REAL GAME PERFORMANCE.

let me explain, you see 3dmark is a synthetic benchmark tool, it dosnt use situations that real games use, its fine for comparing tweaks and stability testing, infact thats what i use it for, i run a loop over night and if the systems still going in the morning then i know my video overclocks stable.

3dmark and other synthetic benches are VERY prown to inconsistancys from system to system, you can change 1 setting in bios or drivers that wont have any effect on real games and you can loose 1500 3dmarks.

example, i have 2 systems here, both are socket 754 3700+@2.65gz, x800xt pe cards, 2gb hign end ram, everything the same except the motherboard, ones a chantech vnf3-250 the other has an MSI nf3-250 in it, guess what, even with the same memory settings and other bios tweaks the chantech board system gets over 1000points on the msi system, when you look deeper into it you find that the async latancy is 1ms diffrant between the 2 boards, that setting has NO effect on games, both systems play farcry,fear,hl2,quake4,doom3,prey and a host of other games with the same avg fps, oh and yes the os's are the same infact they are cloned from drive to drive(was to lazy to do 2 installs so i did 1, same hardware other then board brands...why work harder then u need to? )

i understand you think you know alot about videocards and whats better, but from what i can see you lack real world experiance dealing with a wide spectrum of hardware, i dont, i deal with this shit every day, 8600,8800,3850,3870, blah blah blah, i have had about every card you can think of at one point or another, i had compaired 64 to 128 128 to 256 256 to 512 and so on, and you know what, at first the extra ram dosnt tend to make a huge diffrance but then games come out or are patched to take advantege of the extra ram, also companys like ati/amd and nvidia tend to take a bit of time to optimize the drivers to allow the cards to truely take advantege of the extra ram.

example, ati's x800 drivers, at first the cards perf was kickass, but then after a couple driver revisions they put out a driver that was made to optimize the use 256mb of ram the x800pro/xt cards had on them, it also boosted 9800xt 256mb perf as well tho!!!, there was up to a 90fps boost in some games(FARCRY!!!!!!) i think it was the 4.12 rivers that did it, cant remmber its been a few years, but point is that after they did that the cards perf stomped the 128 me cards of the day, it also made an already fast card even faster.........same can happen here, i dont give nvidia alot of credit in the driver update market, mainly because i have seen how they can cock that up, but in this case they could very well put out a driver that will give these 1gb cards an easy boost.

the 2900xt 1gb got a nice boost from a driver update from what one review update i read said, will look for the site later, my net is being slow as turtles stampeeding thru peanutbutter tonight.

as my german friend would say "you fail it" meaning you lack proper knowlage to continue this argument.
to use a like from tv "you are the weakist link, good buy" :)

ps dont take this wrong, i just get sick of people talking out their asses about stuff they dont have any personal experiance with.

[Jelle Mees]

The reason why 1GB on the 8800Gt does not perform well is fairly simple, at a GPU speed of 600mhz there is just not enough GPU power to process the larger flow of data quick enough to bring any benefit and as the charts that have been posted show, it can have a detremental effect...... whoever says that overclocking the GPU wont help is wrong (IMO), at a GPU speed of 700Mhz (with shaders linked) the performance of the 1GB increases at 16xx x 10xx by upto 17% in crysis for example, how do I know that? well I had an Asus 512MB 8800GT before the Palit 1GB in the same system and in the Crysis Demo with all settings the same I saw an improvement on max detail with 4x AA of upto (max) 11FPS and an average of 7FPS.......now thats fairly substantial but I stress thats max everything and with max everything (in Crysis demo) the difference is almost beetween a non playable game and a playable one. I used FRAPS to measure that, crysis I beleive, even at 1280 x 1024 with high detail but NO AA uses more than 512MB of memory.

I will also go so far as to say, my Palit 1GB card performs better with high detail in Crysis than my G92 8800GTS with it's extra shaders and faster clock speeds. I appreciate that I am talking just one game here and I did not try the comparison at the time on any others so the same MAY NOT apply to other games, although, contrary to what one person said, I would find it hard to beleive that any modern 1st person game on a resolution of 16xx x 10xx and above on max detail and max AA would not use more than 512MB GDDR period.

If anyone would like me to make comparisons between the 1GB 8800GT and the 512MB 8800GTS (clocked at same speeds) in any other game (I dont still have the Asus 8800GT) I have I would be more than happy to do so, the games I have at the moment that are fairly recent, apart from Crysis are:

Supreme Commander
COD4
Stalker
Company of Heroes

It may be interesting to see if the slower 1GB card can beat the faster 512MB card in any of these games with max everything at 1600 resolutions, just shout if you want some benches :D

Finnally. A decent argument.

Now, can you repost some framerates? Before/after OC and stuff like that?

[ChillyMyst]

The reason why 1GB on the 8800Gt does not perform well is fairly simple, at a GPU speed of 600mhz there is just not enough GPU power to process the larger flow of data quick enough to bring any benefit and as the charts that have been posted show, it can have a detremental effect...... whoever says that overclocking the GPU wont help is wrong (IMO), at a GPU speed of 700Mhz (with shaders linked) the performance of the 1GB increases at 16xx x 10xx by upto 17% in crysis for example, how do I know that? well I had an Asus 512MB 8800GT before the Palit 1GB in the same system and in the Crysis Demo with all settings the same I saw an improvement on max detail with 4x AA of upto (max) 11FPS and an average of 7FPS.......now thats fairly substantial but I stress thats max everything and with max everything (in Crysis demo) the difference is almost beetween a non playable game and a playable one. I used FRAPS to measure that, crysis I beleive, even at 1280 x 1024 with high detail but NO AA uses more than 512MB of memory.

I will also go so far as to say, my Palit 1GB card performs better with high detail in Crysis than my G92 8800GTS with it's extra shaders and faster clock speeds. I appreciate that I am talking just one game here and I did not try the comparison at the time on any others so the same MAY NOT apply to other games, although, contrary to what one person said, I would find it hard to beleive that any modern 1st person game on a resolution of 16xx x 10xx and above on max detail and max AA would not use more than 512MB GDDR period.

If anyone would like me to make comparisons between the 1GB 8800GT and the 512MB 8800GTS (clocked at same speeds) in any other game (I dont still have the Asus 8800GT) I have I would be more than happy to do so, the games I have at the moment that are fairly recent, apart from Crysis are:

Supreme Commander
COD4
Stalker
Company of Heroes

It may be interesting to see if the slower 1GB card can beat the faster 512MB card in any of these games with max everything at 1600 resolutions, just shout if you want some benches :D

should add the ut3 demo in there, that would be a good little addon. and yeah, if you have the cards to compair i would lke to see some benching, specly if u can give the cards a little overclocking, my stock 8800gt is at 720/1775/2100 and quite happy :)

[Jelle Mees]

8% overclock......pathetic, you need to learn to overclock better.

you also need to learn that 3dmark dosnt mean shit in REAL GAME PERFORMANCE.

let me explain, you see 3dmark is a synthetic benchmark tool, it dosnt use situations that real games use, its fine for comparing tweaks and stability testing, infact thats what i use it for, i run a loop over night and if the systems still going in the morning then i know my video overclocks stable.

3dmark and other synthetic benches are VERY prown to inconsistancys from system to system, you can change 1 setting in bios or drivers that wont have any effect on real games and you can loose 1500 3dmarks.

example, i have 2 systems here, both are socket 754 3700+@2.65gz, x800xt pe cards, 2gb hign end ram, everything the same except the motherboard, ones a chantech vnf3-250 the other has an MSI nf3-250 in it, guess what, even with the same memory settings and other bios tweaks the chantech board system gets over 1000points on the msi system, when you look deeper into it you find that the async latancy is 1ms diffrant between the 2 boards, that setting has NO effect on games, both systems play farcry,fear,hl2,quake4,doom3,prey and a host of other games with the same avg fps, oh and yes the os's are the same infact they are cloned from drive to drive(was to lazy to do 2 installs so i did 1, same hardware other then board brands...why work harder then u need to? )

i understand you think you know alot about videocards and whats better, but from what i can see you lack real world experiance dealing with a wide spectrum of hardware, i dont, i deal with this shit every day, 8600,8800,3850,3870, blah blah blah, i have had about every card you can think of at one point or another, i had compaired 64 to 128 128 to 256 256 to 512 and so on, and you know what, at first the extra ram dosnt tend to make a huge diffrance but then games come out or are patched to take advantege of the extra ram, also companys like ati/amd and nvidia tend to take a bit of time to optimize the drivers to allow the cards to truely take advantege of the extra ram.

example, ati's x800 drivers, at first the cards perf was kickass, but then after a couple driver revisions they put out a driver that was made to optimize the use 256mb of ram the x800pro/xt cards had on them, it also boosted 9800xt 256mb perf as well tho!!!, there was up to a 90fps boost in some games(FARCRY!!!!!!) i think it was the 4.12 rivers that did it, cant remmber its been a few years, but point is that after they did that the cards perf stomped the 128 me cards of the day, it also made an already fast card even faster.........same can happen here, i dont give nvidia alot of credit in the driver update market, mainly because i have seen how they can cock that up, but in this case they could very well put out a driver that will give these 1gb cards an easy boost.

the 2900xt 1gb got a nice boost from a driver update from what one review update i read said, will look for the site later, my net is being slow as turtles stampeeding thru peanutbutter tonight.

as my german friend would say "you fail it" meaning you lack proper knowlage to continue this argument.
to use a like from tv "you are the weakist link, good buy" :)

ps dont take this wrong, i just get sick of people talking out their asses about stuff they dont have any personal experiance with.

Oh my God. Where did you see me saying that 3DMark reflects gaming performance???

8% overclock? Yeah, so what. It was just a simple bios setting, I didn't take time to overclock the CPU! Did you see mee saying that 8% is the maximum??

You read my post and jumped to conclusions that don't make sence. You can google my as much as you want, you will always see me saying "3dmark doesn't reflect game performance!!!"

You lack the ability to read posts correctly. NEVER will you see me saying that 3DMark scores say anything about hardware!!!

[ChillyMyst]

It's funny that you instult me, me, someone who uses reviews to defend his statements. Someone who has owned and/or tested practicly every card that gets released.

I did simular tests as HardOCP to test if they were honest.

But you guys, the only thing you can say is "I think that" because you haven't tested ****, youf all ignorant. You instult me while you don't have a single review that shows you might my correct.

I got reviews to backup your statements, what do you guys have? God??? Are you guys all phychic???

if everybody is out to get you maby you should stop what your doing, as to reviews, there arent alot of 8800gt 1gb reviews yet that i can find, and the few idid are like the hardocp one, they are invlaid because they dont tell you what settings are use or because they use weird mixed settings that differ from test to test, thats no way to bench a card.......

and your calling us ugnorant........wileE has the card in question, i have an 8800gt 512 and have tested it side by side with a 3850 512mb and a 3870, in real games you cant tell the diffrance till ur past 1600x1200, crysis is the ONLY place you gotta go lower, and that games quite poorly optimized, it really needs some patches b4 its a good bench to use.

wheres your proof that a 9800 1gb will beable to play crysis at high settings properly? show us some benchmarks that proove it???common now where are they??? oh you cant proove it....to bad........

im sorry yall but this is getting to me, this guy insults and talks down to people dispite not having the cards in question or the background to know what hes talking about........

WileE i will leave this to you, but i would just add this guy to my iggy list, hes clearly a KIA(know it all) and isnt gonna have his mind changed even if you had video recordings of proof that 1gb card can out perform a 512mb card.

[ChillyMyst]

Oh my God. Where did you see me saying that 3DMark reflects gaming performance???

8% overclock? Yeah, so what. It was just a simple bios setting, I didn't take time to overclock the CPU! Did you see mee saying that 8% is the maximum??

You read my post and jumped to conclusions that don't make sence. You can google my as much as you want, you will always see me saying "3dmark doesn't reflect game performance!!!"

You lack the ability to read posts correctly. NEVER will you see me saying that 3DMark scores say anything about hardware!!!

you are the one who started in with 3dmark scores, they are in your chart and you mantioned them saying that a 8800gt would get 1000-1500 higher then the 3870.....


Oh and back on topic, if u got a crossfire board i would consider 2 3850 512mb powercolor cards, they come stock at 720 core(higher then any other stock 3850, pretty close to the clock on a 3870!!!) also a kickass lifetime warr that they acctualy honour!!!

[Jelle Mees]

I am a know it all because I read reviews before I make statements.

Again, not a single test so far has prooven what you all are saying.

[Jelle Mees]

you are the one who started in with 3dmark scores, they are in your chart and you mantioned them saying that a 8800gt would get 1000-1500 higher then the 3870.....

He wanted to know how the 8800GT would perform on his 4600+. I just sad "you will have about 10000-11000 points in 3DMark. That's all I sad. I didn't mention in-game performance or anything. Just wanted to help out the guy with his question.

Again, I tested it myself. Again I post something based on facts...

[Jelle Mees]

Another 2900XT 1024MB review:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/graphics/review/2007/08/14/ATI-HD-2900-XT-1024MB-DDR4/p1

A 3850 1024MB review:
http://www.hartware.de/review_784.html

That's 4 reviews so far that all show the same thing. 1024MB only provides an advantage on unplayable settings.

Seriously, how many reviews do you need to get convinced?

Why would 4 different reviews websites fake results???

[Mussels]

Why would 4 different reviews websites fake results???
To get more free review samples from the other company? heh, many review sites are biased. I stopped doing reviews because every last company (except thermalright and OCZ) nags you behind the scenes to make their products look better - and if you dont, you stop getting samples.



Thats highly unlikely for this situation, but i make a request (to EVERYONE): stop posting opinions and fanboy bullshit. Either link to a review, or post about personal experience with the hardware. by posting something incomplete and missing minor details, you're only encouraging the other fanboys to pick on the one tiny flaw in your wording, and it ends up a flame war. we dont want that.

[Xaser04]

Another 2900XT 1024MB review:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/graphics/review/2007/08/14/ATI-HD-2900-XT-1024MB-DDR4/p1

A 3850 1024MB review:
http://www.hartware.de/review_784.html

That's 4 reviews so far that all show the same thing. 1024MB only provides an advantage on unplayable settings.

Seriously, how many reviews do you need to get convinced?

Why would 4 different reviews websites fake results???


Here are some results from firingsquads review of the Palit 8800GT 1gb at 2560x1600

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/palit_geforce_8800_gt_super+_1gb_review/page13.asp

Its interesting in the sense that whilst the 1gb card does indeed become quicker than its 512mb counterpart in crysis and oblivion, neither game is what I would call playable at these settings.

I think at certain settings in certain games the 1gb card would offer a slight performance advantage over the 512mb model however I wouldn't personally say that this performance difference is worth the extra outlay (you may as well stump up a little extra and get a GTS which is quicker again)

[Wile E]

Another 2900XT 1024MB review:
http://www.trustedreviews.com/graphics/review/2007/08/14/ATI-HD-2900-XT-1024MB-DDR4/p1

A 3850 1024MB review:
http://www.hartware.de/review_784.html

That's 4 reviews so far that all show the same thing. 1024MB only provides an advantage on unplayable settings.

Seriously, how many reviews do you need to get convinced?

Why would 4 different reviews websites fake results???
Now I agree that a 3850 1GB might be stretching it, but that 2900 review is from last August. Things have gotten even better for it.

But anyway, what in God's name does that have to do with the 8800GT, which, I might add, is a more powerful gpu to begin with? Just because there's no gian on a 3850, doesn't mean there's no gain on an 8800GT. You're comparing Apples to Oranges here.

And we won't believe your reviews because we have FIRST HAND experience. Reviewers don't always have the proper time, optimal setups, or any other number of reasons, to make 100% accurate reviews. What drivers were the 8800GT 1GB reviews using? What kind of increases are to be had with newer drivers, or even game patches? The list goes on and on. At any rate, the original 8800 1GB review you posted was all over the charts. That right there denotes something is amiss. There's one point where the 1GB wins at a less intensive setting, then loses at a more intensive setting in the same game.

One test proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, that 1GB cards have their benefit, yet you toss it aside as if it doesn't exist.

Also, you said Tatty_One provided a reasonable argument, yet I already said that OCing makes a substantial difference, and you blew it off.

The bottom line is, if you 100% trust review sites using release or older drivers, not listing their settings, or in any way skewing (if even inadvertently) results, then you have a lot to learn.

[Wile E]

Here are some results from firingsquads review of the Palit 8800GT 1gb at 2560x1600

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/palit_geforce_8800_gt_super+_1gb_review/page13.asp

Its interesting in the sense that whilst the 1gb card does indeed become quicker than its 512mb counterpart in crysis and oblivion, neither game is what I would call playable at these settings.

I think at certain settings in certain games the 1gb card would offer a slight performance advantage over the 512mb model however I wouldn't personally say that this performance difference is worth the extra outlay (you may as well stump up a little extra and get a GTS which is quicker again)But that also doesn't have OCed testing. I'm willing to bet the difference would be more substantial at 700MHz core+. Something Tatty already confirmed.

[Xaser04]

I don't think I have read one review that compares overclocking so I can't give an onion either way there.

I would say though even with a hefty overclock the two games where the 1gb actually shows a performance advantage in the firingsquad review would still not be playable (oblivion might be if you don't mind more choppy framerates).

I was trying to point out though for the price of the 1gb 8800GT the 512mb GTS is maybe a more viable option as it does show a nice performance advantage over the GT when compared the performance difference in reviews comparing the 1gb GT with the 512mb GT.

[Wile E]

I don't think I have read one review that compares overclocking so I can't give an onion either way there.

I would say though even with a hefty overclock the two games where the 1gb actually shows a performance advantage in the firingsquad review would still not be playable (oblivion might be if you don't mind more choppy framerates).

I was trying to point out though for the price of the 1gb 8800GT the 512mb GTS is maybe a more viable option as it does show a nice performance advantage over the GT when compared the performance difference in reviews comparing the 1gb GT with the 512mb GT.Yeah, the GTS may be the better value than 1GB GT, unless you find a good deal. But my only point is that the 1GB card has it's benefits, and that some games do use more than 512MB of the buffer.

tbh, I don't even remember how this all started. lol.

[Mussels]

I don't think I have read one review that compares overclocking so I can't give an onion either way there.

I would say though even with a hefty overclock the two games where the 1gb actually shows a performance advantage in the firingsquad review would still not be playable (oblivion might be if you don't mind more choppy framerates).

I was trying to point out though for the price of the 1gb 8800GT the 512mb GTS is maybe a more viable option as it does show a nice performance advantage over the GT when compared the performance difference in reviews comparing the 1gb GT with the 512mb GT.

i'm pretty sure a card going from 600 to 740 core like my GT has (2nd system, before you comment) would be able to power the ram a lot better. Different archcitectures have different balances - some have more GPU power and not enough ram, others have more ram power nad not enough GPU.

Assuming the 8800GT has enough GPU power for 512MB but not 1GB, the increases would make sense - on a lower end card like the 3850, its probably already starving its ram due to the 'slow' (relatively) GPU.

I'm an ex-reviewer - hows that for first hand experience? reviews you only have one system setup, a short amount of time, and often pre-release drivers - and people will still quote your article as truth and valid even if its a year old. A lot changes in a year - CPU speeds go up, systems get more ram, drivers get tuned in.

[Xaser04]

Yeah, the GTS may be the better value than 1GB GT, unless you find a good deal. But my only point is that the 1GB card has it's benefits, and that some games do use more than 512MB of the buffer.


I am not dissagreeing with you however it does appear that reviews at least don't seem to share the same conclusion (which as you said above is why we also need to take into account actual user feedback).

I think when it comes to it if you can get a 1gb 8800GT for not much more than a 512mb model then its worth it, even if you don't see any performance advantage now (as a user not based on reviews) it may show some performance benefit later on.

[Mussels]

I am not dissagreeing with you however it does appear that reviews at least don't seem to share the same conclusion (which as you said above is why we also need to take into account actual user feedback).

I think when it comes to it if you can get a 1gb 8800GT for not much more than a 512mb model then its worth it, even if you don't see any performance advantage now (as a user not based on reviews) it may show some performance benefit later on.

for a past example: i'm pretty sure users with 256MB cards are pissed nowadays, compared to the 512MB users of the same GPU (x1800/x1900) users for example)

[Jelle Mees]

I think when it comes to it if you can get a 1gb 8800GT for not much more than a 512mb model then its worth it, even if you don't see any performance advantage now (as a user not based on reviews) it may show some performance benefit later on.

I agree 100% with this statement.

If you have to pay 50-60$ more for the 1GB version, I think that you're better off buying better cooling for CPU or the GPU...

[Tatty_One]

It's funny that you instult me, me, someone who uses reviews to defend his statements. Someone who has owned and/or tested practicly every card that gets released.

I did simular tests as HardOCP to test if they were honest.

But you guys, the only thing you can say is "I think that" because you haven't tested ****, youf all ignorant. You instult me while you don't have a single review that shows you might my correct.

I got reviews to backup your statements, what do you guys have? God??? Are you guys all phychic???

I am assuming you are NOT referring to me when you talk about someone "insulting" you, nowhere in my post above have I insulted anyone (my post was not even aimed at you, it was a general thread point), I see however from your post that you seem to be insulting someone!, I have simply stated facts on my experience with the 2 cards. reviews are great but even reviews can differ, I find the best way to decide what is best for me is personal experience, I would personally rather see what a piece of hardware will do in my system than see what it will do in someone else's. As I said, in my experience with both cards, in Crysis only at high res with everything including AA maxed the 1GB 8800GT OVERCLOCKED to 700mhz performed better than my 512MB GT that was also overclocked to 700mhz......nothing more I can really say, do any of the reviews show the stats with an overclocked 1GB GT?

[Jelle Mees]

I am assuming you are NOT referring to me when you talk about someone "insulting" you, nowhere in my post above have I insulted anyone (my post was not even aimed at you, it was a general thread point), I see however from your post that you seem to be insulting someone!, I have simply stated facts on my experience with the 2 cards. reviews are great but even reviews can differ, I find the best way to decide what is best for me is personal experience, I would personally rather see what a piece of hardware will do in my system than see what it will do in someone else's. As I said, in my experience with both cards, in Crysis only at high res with everything including AA maxed the 1GB 8800GT OVERCLOCKED to 700mhz performed better than my 512MB GT that was also overclocked to 700mhz......nothing more I can really say, do any of the reviews show the stats with an overclocked 1GB GT?

I was talking about the people who were attacking me personally. No you, you make good arguments.

Now, you say that the 1GB performed better, but was it at playable settings? And I see 30-35fps on Crysis as playable because once you get lower, you get mouse-lag.

[Tatty_One]

I was talking about the people who were attacking me personally. No you, you make good arguments.

Now, you say that the 1GB performed better, but was it at playable settings? And I see 30-35fps on Crysis as playable because once you get lower, you get mouse-lag.

Yes it was, if I remember rightly the average 7fps increase for the 1GB card was at 36FPS I think, the 512MB card was at 29FPS I think at those settings.

I will try and do a couple of runs over the next couple of night at home between the 1GB GT and the 512MB GTS at high detail, not to prove or disprove anyones point here but to just see for my own sake because as I said, my findings were only for one game (Crysis) which we all know makes some odd demands on hardware, I would like to see how other games perform with the different memory sizes so my thoughts would be, using the 2 cards with say a quad at a reasonable level of say 3Gig (thinking of average user here), both cards set at shall we say 700mhz core for one run, 750mhz core for another and see how they perform, if the 1GB GT beats the 512MB GTS in ANY test that would show the benefits as the GTS has more shaders.

Will keep you all informed.........I just dont want to keep a flame war alive so best you all agree to disagree for the time being (those that are disagreeing that is). It will probably take me a couple of days to do it all as work is busy at the moment and not getting home until late in the evenings so bare with me!

[KieranD]

1280 x 1024 is my CRT monitors max resolution so laugh all you want but thats what i play at
hmmmn i dont know if the extra memory is actually worth the £50 extra i mean i dont even have £50 extra to spend on a graphics card

im getting a new case so there is no way unless is its a much better buy im getting a 1gb version
id like to see these benchmarks and results to seems interesting im notdoubting that the extra memory wont come in handy but if the gpu itself isnt going to utilise it then what the point imo

lol i think i saw a 1gb version of the 8500gt whats the point of that

[Jelle Mees]

Eeuhm, if your max resolution is 1280x1024, you really, really, really don't need 1GB :D

I play most of my games on 2048x1536 with 512mb...

[KieranD]

my monitor is something around 3/4 years old but its got a nice non hurt your eyes picture on it
its black and silver so theres no big style issue unless you count the fact its a CRT and has a big ass

just a random 17inch

[Palit_Guy]

Whew- this is getting brutal and I'm prolly gonna get trashed here but I'm going to give it a shot anyway.

If you want to understand the value of 1GB on the 8800GT you need to take a step back for a minute. Way back to about 30,000 feet so you can look at the big picture.

Video games are not moving in the direction of using less RAM. If you disagree with that just stop reading here. As we move forward, games will want more memory.

Does the 8800GT benefit from having 1GB? In some cases. Those cases are mostly a moot point (FOR NOW) because, as been already mentioned, they occur at equally unplayable frame rates as the 512MB version.

But is this an indicator of how these cards will perform on games in six months or even a year? I think it is. As driver releases come out and game patches are released performance is improved.

But you have to be careful about which games you use as an example. FEAR and Bioshock are not likely to be getting any updates so I wouldn't expect to see any additional improvement over time. That's fine with me because no one really plays those games much any more anyway.

Crysis, for as pretty as it is, is going to suffer the same fate as Far Cry (I'd bet). It looks great and shows of the technology of the hardware but gameplay is so FUBAR that no one will actually play the game outside of the single player version. I would only expect to see two or three updates before the game dies altogether.

UT3, I hope, will last a little longer since they allow player mods. If they can make the game fun to play again we might see a long update path.

COD4 is probably the most important benchmark to look at in any case. The game is wicked fun and very popular. I think we can expect to see periodic updates over at least a year.

Let's take a break from that for a minute and talk about the hardware.

The reason you don't see as much of an improvement going from 512MB to 1GB as, believe me, we would all like to see is the power of the GPU. You can demonstrate that through simple overclocking. As you increase the speed of the GPU you will find a direct correlation to the performance increase over that of the 512MB card.

Is it possible to OC the card high enough to get us into playable frames rates at really high resolutions while using AA and AF? I have to say, not at this time. But now we need to go back to the software part of this.

How will driver updates and game patches affect performance over the course of a year or two? Obviously everyone would hope things would improve and I think in most cases they will. Will they improve to the point that having a 1GB 8800GT makes OBVIOUS sense? I think in some cases yes (like COD4) and in some cases no (like Crysis).

I should add that when I say obvious I simply mean producing a perceivable decrease in the number of frames rendered below what we would consider playable.

There's another side to all this that I'm posting right now. Give me a minute to finish that before everyone jumps on me.

[Palit_Guy]

One of the things Palit is trying to do is drive the industry forward in general. It's fine to just sit back and make great cards that support what is going on now but part of what we do has to have an eye on the future.

We have an entire family of 1GB cards including the 8500GT and 8600GT. Is there any sense in having a 1GB 8500? Only if you take epeen into consideration. And even that is a stretch (no pun intended).

But it does send a message. Palit is willing to step up to the plate and at least try to actively make a go of looking toward the future. Does anyone doubt that in a year or two most cards will have a 1GB flavor?

So I am willing to admit that in most cases on today's date the 1GB is a little ahead of its time, especially when you string it down to the mainstream grade parts.

With this explanation here are the conclusions I'd like people to understand.


1GB performance should improve over time depending on the game
Palit is doing its part to push the industry forward


Are people going to buy a 1GB version not fully understanding what it will and will not do? Of course. Did Palit release 1GB cards just so people could claim epeen? Rubbish, no. Not JUST for that reason. I'm not afraid to admit that Palit, to a certain extent, likes epeen. Why wouldn't we? We make overclocked cards too.

The last thing to take into consideration is price. If Palit was charging some crazy amount for the 1GB cards things would be very different. Typically we see just a $30US difference, give or take, between the 512MB and 1GB versions on the Palit designed versions. That tells you we're not trying to take undue advantage on the marketing side.

So when you are deciding between the 512MB and the 1GB versions, if you just want to look at a combination of price and performance your decision should include two factors.


Am I concerned about how this card will perform in a year or two?
Do I think that driver updates and game patches will improve performance?


If this card is only going to be in your rig for a few months, then I would say go with the 512MB version. If you disagree with me that no amount of game patching or driver updating will improve things over time enough to make the 1GB worth it, then I would say go with the 512MB version.

Yes, you heard it right, the guy that works for Palit just said it's ok for people to buy a less expensive card. I've also said that the 1GB card isn't always better than the 512MB card.

So now you see some of Palit's thinking on the 1GB v 512MB debate. I'll keep my eye on this thread and try to answer any questions.

[ChillyMyst]

for a past example: i'm pretty sure users with 256MB cards are pissed nowadays, compared to the 512MB users of the same GPU (x1800/x1900) users for example)

EXECTLY!!!!!!! unless ur stuck at 1280 and below(or in some cases 1024 and below) 256mb cards are horribly crippled for current games.....even at those lower res's you gotta watch your AA levels because they will eat up ur videoram fast.

now also remmber the 3850's drivers are not optimized for 1gb yet, the 2900's barly are, because these cards ARE NOT COMMON YET, just like when the 4.12's came out and gave the 256mb ati cards that nice boost they got, its a waiting game, the same kinda update happened with the x1k line a nice perf boost happened with a driver update if you had a 512 card vs a 256(256 still got a boost but it was smaller)

if you get it at a good price the 1gb card is the better choice for FUTURE GAMES, if not just get the 512mb, but for the love of god dont get a 256mb unless u plan to game at 1024 or 800 res........even then......ewww

[Jelle Mees]

One of the things Palit is trying to do is drive the industry forward in general. It's fine to just sit back and make great cards that support what is going on now but part of what we do has to have an eye on the future.

We have an entire family of 1GB cards including the 8500GT and 8600GT. Is there any sense in having a 1GB 8500? Only if you take epeen into consideration. And even that is a stretch (no pun intended).

But it does send a message. Palit is willing to step up to the plate and at least try to actively make a go of looking toward the future. Does anyone doubt that in a year or two most cards will have a 1GB flavor?

So I am willing to admit that in most cases on today's date the 1GB is a little ahead of its time, especially when you string it down to the mainstream grade parts.

With this explanation here are the conclusions I'd like people to understand.


1GB performance should improve over time depending on the game
Palit is doing its part to push the industry forward


Are people going to buy a 1GB version not fully understanding what it will and will not do? Of course. Did Palit release 1GB cards just so people could claim epeen? Rubbish, no. Not JUST for that reason. I'm not afraid to admit that Palit, to a certain extent, likes epeen. Why wouldn't we? We make overclocked cards too.

The last thing to take into consideration is price. If Palit was charging some crazy amount for the 1GB cards things would be very different. Typically we see just a $30US difference, give or take, between the 512MB and 1GB versions on the Palit designed versions. That tells you we're not trying to take undue advantage on the marketing side.

So when you are deciding between the 512MB and the 1GB versions, if you just want to look at a combination of price and performance your decision should include two factors.


Am I concerned about how this card will perform in a year or two?
Do I think that driver updates and game patches will improve performance?


If this card is only going to be in your rig for a few months, then I would say go with the 512MB version. If you disagree with me that no amount of game patching or driver updating will improve things over time enough to make the 1GB worth it, then I would say go with the 512MB version.

Yes, you heard it right, the guy that works for Palit just said it's ok for people to buy a less expensive card. I've also said that the 1GB card isn't always better than the 512MB card.

So now you see some of Palit's thinking on the 1GB v 512MB debate. I'll keep my eye on this thread and try to answer any questions.

Look, Palit is selling 8500GT and 8600GT cards because they want to fool people that don't know anything about GPU's, not because they want to "drive the industry forward". Come on...:rolleyes:

I can't beleave 2 people actually thanked you for your message :eek:

[ChillyMyst]

they are selling those cards because there is a market for them, no other reasion matters in buisness, if they can make a profit selling something they will, most users dont need an 8800gt or 3870, a mid range card will suit them perfectly, please grow up, i mean honestly do you have to be so rude and condecending to people who dont agree with you?

edit: wanted to add that for somebody whos running software like autocad and dosnt need a high end card 1gb mid range can be usefull, look at the quatro and firegl cards, they have 1gb cards based on 7300/1300 chips all the way up to the latist greatist chips, theres a market for those cards, its just not the gamers market.

[Palit_Guy]

I don't have the exact numbers but I can tell you that the number of 1GB 8500GTs we sell is very small. It's really more of a token effort than anything else. Same goes for the 8600GT 1GB. The point is to say that we have a FAMILY of 1GB cards.

I agree that we COULD release these widely and that there are many people who would buy them just because they, inaccurately, believe that on the lower end cards it makes a difference.

But that isn't what we're doing and that isn't what people are buying. Don't sell people so short. Also remember that on the low end price is king. The 1GB version costs more than any other version of 8500GT which further incentive for them not to buy it.

The same thing goes for the 8600GT. Can you game with it? For the most part. But the folks buying that one are trying to game on the smallest budget possible. So we see the same thing here, Palit doesn't make many and people don't buy many.

So, on the lower end, it really is more of a statement than anything else. Can you measure a performance difference? Yes. Is it terribly meaningful? Not really. Are we doing any marketing to promote these cards? No.

As for people thanking me for my post... I'm not in here spewing out a bunch of marketing crap. I'm providing real answers about what's going on as we see it. If you don't agree we can discuss it and I'll do the best I can to explain.

I don't think it's real common for manufacturers to hang out in forums and provide real, non-BS answers. Ya, there are a few, but that's the exception and not the rule. It could be they are just saying thanks for taking the time to come by and at least acknowledge that enthusiasts exist and to answer some questions.

I also want to make sure that people get real information from a legitimate source. You are certainly entitled to your opinion but don't expect me to sit idly by and let you say anything you want about Palit.

I don't know your real name so I can't be positive but I'm pretty sure you don't work for Palit. That means you can't represent Palit or state as fact what our intentions are. If you are of the OPINION that we are trying to rip people off, you are free to say so. But to say...

Look, Palit is selling 8500GT and 8600GT cards because they want to fool people that don't know anything about GPU's, not because they want to "drive the industry forward".

(I think) is beyond your purview. You are free to say you THINK that's what we're doing.

In the interest of not turning this into a worthless flaming section I want to say this very carefully. I am happy to explain what we're doing and why as long as we all understand this is a conversation. The only person in this thread (so far) that is qualified to say what Palit's intentions are is me since I'm the only one here that works for them.

The effect of this is that if I say, "Jelle Mees doesn't know what he's talking about because he doesn't work for Palit." I could be wrong. Maybe you do and I just don't know your online name. Since I'm not sure I can only say, "I THINK Jelle Mees doesn't know what he's talking about because I don't THINK he works for Palit."

The difference is that you can come back and correct me if I'm wrong. If you do work for Palit it's a simple thing for me to say," Oh, OK, you do work for Palit so you must be able to speak to their intentions. Sorry, my bad." It would show that my thinking was incorrect. But if I just say you don't know what you're talking about and it turns out you really are a Palit employee, you would be qualified to state their intentions as fact and I would be wrong.

So, I guess the easiest and most polite thing I can do at this point is simply to ask, are you a Palit employee and therefore qualified to state Palit's intentions, or is it just your opinion that Palit is simply trying to "fool" people?

[Palit_Guy]

they are selling those cards because there is a market for them, no other reasion matters in buisness, if they can make a profit selling something they will, most users dont need an 8800gt or 3870, a mid range card will suit them perfectly, please grow up, i mean honestly do you have to be so rude and condecending to people who dont agree with you?

edit: wanted to add that for somebody whos running software like autocad and dosnt need a high end card 1gb mid range can be usefull, look at the quatro and firegl cards, they have 1gb cards based on 7300/1300 chips all the way up to the latist greatist chips, theres a market for those cards, its just not the gamers market.

This is true. In the CAD world there are many folks who need to be able to render things that utilize the huge frame buffer but don't need to render things in real time. Typically, this is a secretary or some kind of assistant that occasionally needs to open a CAD file (or something like that, I'm not an expert on the subject) but doesn't need the expense of a full blown rendering card.

Granted, it's not common, but I did say we don't sell many of these.

We also have some medical applications where customers have been asking for this much memory. I don't really know if they actually get that much benefit from the added RAM but these are not typical consumers. If they are specifically asking for this solution and they can take enough units to make it worth our while to build and sell them, well, why wouldn't we?

On the consumer side, ya, we don't promote these cards very much.

[Jelle Mees]

Maybe I shouldn't have sad "trying to fool people". The correct words would be "fool people."

As a Palit employee, I am sure that you know that many, many gamers just look at the number ( in this case Geforce 8 ) and the amount of memory.

I am an admin in a gaming community and beleave me when I say, most gamers have no clue about core/memory speed, the amount of shaders, the difference between GDDR2/3/4, the difference between 128bit/256bit/320bit/etc... and so many other things that effect a cards performance. I know that, Palit knows that, my grandma knows that...

Now, let me quote something from the palit website:

Redefine your gaming reality with NVIDIA® DirectX® 10 GeForce® 8500 graphics processing units (GPUs). GeForce® 8500GT Super+1GB equipped with avant-garde 1024MB super memory size which allows the users to escape from memory capacity bottlenecks. It features the architecture with unparalleled levels of graphics realism and performance for Microsoft DX ®9 and DX® 10 games for the pricepoint.

Now, you come here and tell me that the goal is not to fool gamers???

Gaming reality? Crysis on 800x600 is not exactly what i call "gaming reality".
Escape from memory capacity bottleneck? The 8500GT IS THE BOTTLENECK for 1024MB.

Now let me quote something from the press release:

The graphics giant once again takes the lead in introducing avant-garde graphics card design to the world. Palit is already well-known for its super version products, which features 512MB super size memory. Now the latest Super+1GB version graphics cards with 1024MB king size memory is ready to rock the market.

The lead in avant-garde graphics card design to the world? Jeezz...
"Ready to rock the market?" Lets change that to "Ready to rock the market on 800x600"
I probably don't need to tell you this, but the old ATI X1300XT ( released two years ago ) is faster then the 8500GT Super+ 1024MB...

And yes it's true that these cards can be usefull in CAD or other software, but don't think for a second that Palit is targeting CAD users...

[Palit_Guy]

So we definitely agree on this point. Every company I'm aware of describes all of their products in the best light possible. Here's a quote from ATI on their X1300:

Radeon™ X1300 Series – Adrenaline for Your PC

Pay for what you need—and get a whole lot more. From playing games and surfing the Internet to watching digital video and editing photographs, the Radeon™ X1300 series of graphics processors breathe life into the graphics of all your media applications.

The X1300 can accelerate digital imaging tasks, enhance 3D graphics in PC games, output a billion more colors than the competition1, and deliver top performance for high definition video2.

What’s more, the X1300 has received ATI’s stamp of approval for Microsoft’s upcoming Windows Vista™ operating system3, enabling your machine to summon some serious graphical glitz without affecting system performance.

That's at http://ati.amd.com/products/RadeonX1300/index.html .

I know as well as you do that the X1300 isn't really a gaming card as we think of a gaming card.

So I'll meet you in the middle and agree that product descriptions can be misleading. But that is the case with every product on the market, cars, vacuums, candy everything. I don't like it any more than you do. While no one says anything that isn't technically true, that doesn't mean you will get the experience you want.

I can tell you that we are working on a project to make things a little more realistic. We're running some games on various different platforms and using fraps to record the video. We will then post that video so you can see with your own eyes how the games perform on different cards.

Let me tell you, this is tricky. It is very easy to reduce the resolution to the point that you can't really tell the game runs like crap or that the in-game settings are st00pid. So we are being careful to make sure the videos themselves aren't misleading.

The idea behind doing this is to help make sure people get the right card for what they are trying to do. If someone buys an 8500 of any flavor and then tries to play Crysis, I don't care who made the card- they aren't going to be happy. The common reaction to that is going to be that Palit sucks and we don't want that. Remember, the person that buys an 8500 to play Crysis is not likely going to be someone who knows very much about video cards.

So there are two ideas behind posting performance videos. One is to make sure that people get the card the need to do what they want to do. Two is to make sure they aren't disappointed in their purchase and go nuts on the forums.

Yes, there is the added benefit that when they see the 8500 may not do what they want so they buy a more expensive card. What can I say, we are a business. But the real point is not JUST to sell better cards. It really is to help people get the cards they need in order to do what they want them to do.

It's very similar to researching what card you will buy in forums first. People talk about their good and bad experiences and then you make the best decision you can from there. None of those people were trying to sell you a card one way or another, they're just giving you some information. We're trying to do the same thing.

[Jelle Mees]

So we definitely agree on this point. Every company I'm aware of describes all of their products in the best light possible. Here's a quote from ATI on their X1300:

That's at http://ati.amd.com/products/RadeonX1300/index.html .

I know as well as you do that the X1300 isn't really a gaming card as we think of a gaming card.

So I'll meet you in the middle and agree that product descriptions can be misleading. But that is the case with every product on the market, cars, vacuums, candy everything. I don't like it any more than you do. While no one says anything that isn't technically true, that doesn't mean you will get the experience you want.

I can tell you that we are working on a project to make things a little more realistic. We're running some games on various different platforms and using fraps to record the video. We will then post that video so you can see with your own eyes how the games perform on different cards.

Let me tell you, this is tricky. It is very easy to reduce the resolution to the point that you can't really tell the game runs like crap or that the in-game settings are st00pid. So we are being careful to make sure the videos themselves aren't misleading.

The idea behind doing this is to help make sure people get the right card for what they are trying to do. If someone buys an 8500 of any flavor and then tries to play Crysis, I don't care who made the card- they aren't going to be happy. The common reaction to that is going to be that Palit sucks and we don't want that. Remember, the person that buys an 8500 to play Crysis is not likely going to be someone who knows very much about video cards.

So there are two ideas behind posting performance videos. One is to make sure that people get the card the need to do what they want to do. Two is to make sure they aren't disappointed in their purchase and go nuts on the forums.

Yes, there is the added benefit that when they see the 8500 may not do what they want so they buy a more expensive card. What can I say, we are a business. But the real point is not JUST to sell better cards. It really is to help people get the cards they need in order to do what they want them to do.

It's very similar to researching what card you will buy in forums first. People talk about their good and bad experiences and then you make the best decision you can from there. None of those people were trying to sell you a card one way or another, they're just giving you some information. We're trying to do the same thing.

Well, I have to say, you are a really good salesman. I see what you are getting at.

Now, it would be cool if Palit posted a list of games on the product page. A list of games that run pretty good on the 8500GT card. Just to name a few popular games that run pretty well on the card "World of Warcraft", "The Sims 2", "Halfe Life 2 Episodes", "Counter Strike Source", "Team Fortress 2", etc...

It would be eaven better if Palit was honest enough ( this would be very unique among GPU companies ) if Palit also posted al list with games that will not run well with this card. Crysis, World in Conflict, Supreme Commander.

A good way to do all this is without giving certain products a bad reputation, post one big list with games on the Palet website. Then the visitor clicks on the game and then it could say "Palit recommends these products for that game. Click here for more info about this product".

Palit hurts his reputation in my country. These are the messages people posted on Dutch websites ( translated by google ) when they first heard about the 8500GT 1GB:

fff marketing
Here you have nothing, even 512 is still too much for such cards

Probably even 256 mb already on the very high side on a 8500GT.

Really something totally useless, the same as a 500 MHz processor with 64 MB Cache, you do not have any turd ...

I can not wait for all responses from some people: "Whaha my l33t h4x0r 8500 pwnt your 8800GTX because mine has 1GB!"

A budget card where you can barely gaming with 1gb memory well pure marketing nothing more nothing less

Also funny what they say on their own website

Redefine your gaming reality with NVIDIA® DirectX® 10 GeForce® 8500 graphics processing units (GPUs). Redefine your reality gaming with NVIDIA GeForce ® DirectX ® 10 ® 8500 graphics processing units (GPUs). GeForce® 8500GT Super+1GB equipped with avant-garde 1024MB super memory size which allows the users to escape from memory capacity bottlenecks. ® GeForce 8500GT Super +1 GB equipped with avant-garde super 1024MB memory size which allows the users to escape from memory capacity bottlenecks.

No interest ...

for a real game-n00b

Pure commerce, only idiots buy this stuff.

As you can see, you might think that it's good publicity. But I have actually seen news-posts that say "Don't get fooled by Palit" and stuff like that...

[Palit_Guy]

To be honest there is no real good solution for any of this. I don't have a problem saying we don't recommend this card for xxx game. That's not a bad idea and I think we'll do that.

Sometimes, though, it doesn't matter what you do or what you say, people are going to flame you.

Marketing is a really tricky business. You want to portray your products in the best light possible. Does that mean you have to rub up against the edge of the table of what's realistic for a card? Regrettably, yes. We have to because everyone else has to.

I know, I know, that's a lame excuse. But if we don't do that then people look at our site and then look at someone else's site and think their cards do something that ours do not when that isn't the case.

So it's very difficult to keep things realistic and accurate at the same time you make them exciting and interesting. Put yourself in my position and think about how you would market the 8500GT. It's not easy. However, of the more routine versions, we sell TONS of them. Personally, I have no use for one at all. I play QW:ET so why would I need one.

But then I see everyone else (manufacturers that is) going on about their cards and I'm put in a bad position. Because of the wide variety of uses for these cards there is no single message you can send about them. You have to cover all your bases, you have to be excited and you have to look good.

On top of that, there are an amazing number of people that actually play games on these lower performing cards. They turn off all the eye candy, res down to 640x480 or 800x600 and just live with 15-25 FPS. I see it at LAN parties all the time. So it CAN be done, just not to the enthusiast's standards.

I hope you take away from this that at least Palit is trying. Believe it or not, I keep a log of all the forums I post in and report them back up the food chain. This will certainly be one those.

So I posted in a forum. So what. The fact that I stayed after you called me out should tell you that I'm not in here just to flash the Palit name around. I want to know what people are thinking and do one of two things, help them understand stuff better if they aren't quite on target and make changes at Palit when we're not quite on target. It's a two way street.

The video idea didn't come out of this thread but it did come out of a forum thread. It's been a while so I don't remember which one. But I didn't invent that idea, it was suggested from the community.

So I not only appreciate your feedback, I use it to drive change. Things don't happen overnight for sure but change will happen.

[Jelle Mees]

how you would market the 8500GT.

1. The Palit card has a better cooler:
1.a: Place "Stock vs Palit" Temperature graphs on product page
1.b: Place "Stock vs Palit" Noice voume graphs on product page
2. Mention that the card is ideal for people who work with CAD or other software that requires a lot of memory
3. Mention that the card runs Source Engine games ( very popular these days ) and World of Warcraft ( very, very popular these days ) just fine + some screenshots

[Palit_Guy]

Good ideas. I've already sent the question about the legality of using the names of games on the site.

The videos I was going to sneak onto youtube. Using images or videos of the game is actually illegal unless you pay the developer so we have to figure something out there. They don't usually go after individuals because of the bad press but it easy to find Palit.

More detailed info about noise and temperature is in the works.

[Jelle Mees]

Good ideas. I've already sent the question about the legality of using the names of games on the site.

The videos I was going to sneak onto youtube. Using images or videos of the game is actually illegal unless you pay the developer so we have to figure something out there. They don't usually go after individuals because of the bad press but it easy to find Palit.

More detailed info about noise and temperature is in the works.

You have to pay the developper for free advertisements? I had no idea that a simple screenshot required permission from the developpers.

[Palit_Guy]

the content of the games is copyrighted. The name is too but it's ok to use the name as long as you include the copyright symbol.

Give me a couple minutes. We're changing the 8500 1GB product page on our website right now. I'm using your suggestion with a little marketing flair.

[Palit_Guy]

OK, Jelle Mees. Feel free to let your friends know that you just effected the change of four of Palit's product pages.

http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=501
http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=503
http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=502
http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=505

The first link is for the 8500GT 1GB and it's already been changed. We're changing the other versions now.

[Jelle Mees]

OK, Jelle Mees. Feel free to let your friends know that you just effected the change of four of Palit's product pages.

http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=501
The first link is for the 8500GT 1GB and it's already been changed. We're changing the other versions now.

I see these changes:

It features entry-level performance for Microsoft DX® 9 and DX® 10 games at a great price. Performance is suitable for many of the latest games like Half-Life® 2 and World of Warcraft®.

Now that is a correct product page! :rockout:

[jpierce55]

Yeah go phenom! Like i said i got a MSI Crossfire Platinum K9A for £45 which was a superb deal!
Id rather max out this board i got than buy new parts for a new one. Id have to redo my whole system if i wanted a Intel cpu and the Phenoms out later this year seem good not as good fast as the Intel stuff but still a good upgrade from a x2 4600+.

Hmmmn not botherd about 3d marks or benchmarking general just want to know if it will make my games run faster and look nicer. Which it will obviously do.

Careful with the Phenom, it may not be as bad as it sounded. The motherboards are what kills the value of it. I have the M3A and it sucks. I don't blame the processor, I blame the 770 chipset.

I would suggest buying an old 580x AM2 mobo and a 5000be over the Phenom because of $ to performance ratio. My old 580x/5000be will probably go back in this weekend if I don't feel to lazy.

[Palit_Guy]

Ok, all 8500GT product pages at the www.palit.biz have been updated to better reflect their performance in games and in general.

All credit for that should go to Jelle Mees for the recommendation and techPowerUp! for providing the forums.

[jpierce55]

OK, Jelle Mees. Feel free to let your friends know that you just effected the change of four of Palit's product pages.

http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=501
http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=503
http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=502
http://www.palit.biz/main/vgapro.php?id=505

The first link is for the 8500GT 1GB and it's already been changed. We're changing the other versions now.

good to see a company taking the time to talk things out with people like this.

[Jelle Mees]

good to see a company taking the time to talk things out with people like this.

Yeah. An honest company, didn't know they still existed.

[jpierce55]

FWIW that earned them the place as the next g-card mfg I buy from. Visionteck customer support did not even answer me when i damaged my card and asked if they offered a repair program.

[Palit_Guy]

Well now I find myself in a real mess.

So while this conversation was going on I got my Director of Marketing on the phone and made her read this whole thread. All I could hear was the not-so-silent intake of breath when she got to the nasty bits.

When she got to my posts she was like, you can't say that kind of stuff. And I'm like why? Is any of it untrue? And she's like, well, no but that's all marketing stuff, no one is interested in this kind of thing.

So we have a conversation that went back and forth a bit and I finally got around to, fine. If none of this really matters then let me change to product pages for the 8500, make sure everyone knows why we did it and where the idea came from and just see how they respond. If we don't hear anything more about it then you won't hear anything more from me about it.

Fine. We change the pages.

So I call her back and have her look at this page again to see the posts by Jelle and jpierce55. Surprisingly enough this was enough to convince her we did the right thing.

And then she threw me a curve ball.

Now I have to go over ALL the product pages and provide feedback as to what, if anything, needs changed. Like I don't already have enough to do. So here I go again getting screwed in the forums. Sheesh.

[Jelle Mees]

Well now I find myself in a real mess.

So while this conversation was going on I got my Director of Marketing on the phone and made her read this whole thread. All I could hear was the not-so-silent intake of breath when she got to the nasty bits.

When she got to my posts she was like, you can't say that kind of stuff. And I'm like why? Is any of it untrue? And she's like, well, no but that's all marketing stuff, no one is interested in this kind of thing.

So we have a conversation that went back and forth a bit and I finally got around to, fine. If none of this really matters then let me change to product pages for the 8500, make sure everyone knows why we did it and where the idea came from and just see how they respond. If we don't hear anything more about it then you won't hear anything more from me about it.

Fine. We change the pages.

So I call her back and have her look at this page again to see the posts by Jelle and jpierce55. Surprisingly enough this was enough to convince her we did the right thing.

And then she threw me a curve ball.

Now I have to go over ALL the product pages and provide feedback as to what, if anything, needs changed. Like I don't already have enough to do. So here I go again getting screwed in the forums. Sheesh.

Let me do it for you, hehe :toast::roll:

[Palit_Guy]

Tell you what. You send me what you think they should be changed to in a Word document separated by model number. I can translate them into marketing speak (I didn't do bad with what you sent before) and send them in.

Normally I would give you a video card for the effort but you're outside my jurisdiction (I'm limited to the US and Canada) so all I can offer you is my thanks.

[DaMulta]

Yeah. An honest company, didn't know they still existed.

It's what makes me feel good inside about having a relationship with :respect: Palit.

[DarkMatter]

Really interesting thread. I'm amazed about your story Palit_Guy and Jelle Mees. The idea of honest marketing is just so sweet. And that of saying which games can play which card is a really good one IMO. And it could work really well, specialy on the long term.

I have many console gamer friends that tried PC gaming and left it, because they bought a non gaming computer. And what's the difference? ~100 € worth of graphics card (5-10% of the total price), but since they saw the xxxx card was fast, when it actually wasn't they feel ripped off and there are little to no chances they would buy a PC for gaming again.

I think that if cards where marketed as what they are, the whole industry would go better. So linking the cards to the games and making clear what you should expect from the cards on a certain game (in terms of frames, AA and AF levels and such) is a good move. It would encourage people to buy a better and pricier card, specially on the low end. And would also encourage people to buy a card that otherwise they wouldn't buy. There are many people that think that they can't play any game at all with sub 100 € cards because they look at benchmarks and all what they see is 5 FPS, doesn't matter the game is Crysis at 1920x1200 4XAA 16XAF, because most of them don't even know what those things are. Many of my friens just turned everything on because they saw that their cards could do 4XAA and 8XAF. Which brings me to the next point: you should educate people on the terminology, with visual examples if possible. IMO the industry relies too much on review sites and forums for this purpose. Average Joe doesn't want to navigate through pages charged with technicallities just to know what AA or AF is, or how do those play on the hardware they are planning to buy. And what a better place to find the answers than the page of the card they are about to buy?

PC gaming has evolved so fast that settings that 2 years ago where considered high,now are rather low. Most non enthusiast people can survive without AA and AF and 1024x768 is more than enough for them, but they don't even know! Screenshot comparisons on your pages could help fix this. Example:

-On the page of a midrange card you say: This card can play X game at 1280x1024 with 2X AA and 4X AF. Screenshot of how it looks. Then you can add a link that would make a split screen comparison between that and a better card, high end, for example. Let's say the other is capable of 16xAA and 16xAF at 1600x1200. You state that very clear, but in the screenshot you put it at the same resolution for a fair comparisson, stating this too. Don't worry people will know that higher resolution means better IQ. Now to the important thing: looking at those screens the one person that is willing to pay high end will see a huge difference, while most of the others will see little to no difference and will be happy to "know" they have purchased a card that does almost tha same for half the price. Both will be happy, and the purchase done. That's what psychology can do for you. :D

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/videocard_image_quality_shootout?page=0%2C0

Link related to what I say. It's really interesting what happened to the control group: all of them saw differencies even when they were shown the same images!!

[Jelle Mees]

I am currently working on rewriting all product discriptions. It's a lot of work.

I have personal experience with the 8500, 8600 and 8800 cards, I also read about 3-4 product reviews and user-reviews on newegg before I start writing so that I can give a clear, honest discription of what the card can do. Good selling arguments and nobody will be fooled by unreal discriptions like "unparalleled levels of graphics realism and performance" for a low-budget card.

[Mussels]

Eeuhm, if your max resolution is 1280x1024, you really, really, really don't need 1GB :D

I play most of my games on 2048x1536 with 512mb...

considering how old his 1280x1024 screen is, its far more likely he'll upgrade it soon. 1GB would make sense there.

[Wile E]

It's what makes me feel good inside about having a relationship with :respect: Palit.

Ditto. They've been a pleasure to deal with.

[ChillyMyst]

Maybe I shouldn't have sad "trying to fool people". The correct words would be "fool people."

As a Palit employee, I am sure that you know that many, many gamers just look at the number ( in this case Geforce 8 ) and the amount of memory.

I am an admin in a gaming community and beleave me when I say, most gamers have no clue about core/memory speed, the amount of shaders, the difference between GDDR2/3/4, the difference between 128bit/256bit/320bit/etc... and so many other things that effect a cards performance. I know that, Palit knows that, my grandma knows that...

Now, let me quote something from the palit website:



Now, you come here and tell me that the goal is not to fool gamers???

Gaming reality? Crysis on 800x600 is not exactly what i call "gaming reality".
Escape from memory capacity bottleneck? The 8500GT IS THE BOTTLENECK for 1024MB.

Now let me quote something from the press release:



The lead in avant-garde graphics card design to the world? Jeezz...
"Ready to rock the market?" Lets change that to "Ready to rock the market on 800x600"
I probably don't need to tell you this, but the old ATI X1300XT ( released two years ago ) is faster then the 8500GT Super+ 1024MB...

And yes it's true that these cards can be usefull in CAD or other software, but don't think for a second that Palit is targeting CAD users...

never said that was the orignal target m8, but its probbly the market they are getting the most sales in really, sure stupid, dumbass noobie's see 1gb and run to it, just like they saw 128 and ran to that on SiS315 cards and gf4mx cards, at least in this case they are making a card that has nitch market, cad and medical use, and yes medical rendering software for MRI and PET scans can use alot of video memory to display them in real time and allow you to pan/zoom around the scan images, I have seen this in person, i got hurt and they had a problem with the computer not connecting to the scaner, i took a look and it used a cat5e cable and the connection had gotten wet at some point and the contacts on the cable where croded(sp) was pretty easy to fix, just scraped them with my letherman screwdriver and used a small wire brush out of my pc tool kit(it was in my backpack) and pluged it back in(and i told them to have somebody come up and replace the end asap) the videocard in the system used to take and render the scans was a FireGL based on an x1300, it had 1gb ram, this was not a 1300xt(aka 1600) it was an orignal 1300 chip, it did the job, granted a higher end chip would pan/zoom better but this did the job ok for their uses.

and i like the changes you made to the 8500 pages, I would do some CAD rendering examples or fine somebody who uses cad and have them do something for you, maby get a statement from them as to why the 1gb 8500/8600 card is better for them then a 512mb or 256mb version, you may have to give them a card , but its a small price to pay to get some good word of mouth/keyboard, people talking is far more effective then any other form of advertising, hell look at how well AMD did till core2 came out, amd's marketing has alwase been sh!t, but the word of mouth and reviews on tech sites gave them far more sales to system builders and gamers then intels hourly adds for "intel inside" or "with hyper threding"

honestly the more good word of mouth you can get the more sales you will make to low end/mid range/high end gamers, as my first boss said "word of mouth is god in buisness world" (no the, he was german, sometimes forgot to use some words lol)

what he ment was that you need to keep the clients happy, even if it costs you a bit of time or even a bit of profit, because a happy client will send their friends and relitives, we didnt have any adds PERIOD at that time, yet we where one of the if not THE busyist pc shop in the vancouver area, i would say 99.9% of our buisness was purely happy clients sending their friends and relitives then those people talking up our service to their friends and relitives and coworkers.

Palit should stick around forums, honestly i and many other gamers prefer a company whos willing to talk to its target group in public, i got my chaintech mobo because at the time pcper forums had a rep from chaintech who posted regularly, same was true for the first asus videocard i bought, at the time asus had a rep at pcper who talked to people and was quite canded about things, when that 9600 bugg happend where asus 9600 cards wouldnt work in some asus mobo's due to a video bios issue he was quite frank about the whole thing, admited he hadnt herd of it, went to check and told us that it was true and until they came out with a fix to not combine asus video with asus boards(for the 9600 seirse) he even then said that it was possable we could fix it by using some other companys bios and flashing it to our cards(it worked for most people)
after having seen that i had zero problem throwing down the extra cheese when the x800 cameout and the asus was a bit more $, i honestly still fell it was one of the best buys i made!!!

i get a good feeling from you palit guy, if you need any help let me know, im alwase willing to give my oppenion, and i have experiance selling real items to real people in a real computer shop (not some fraud service like geeksquad or compusa......they suck......)

[ChillyMyst]

Careful with the Phenom, it may not be as bad as it sounded. The motherboards are what kills the value of it. I have the M3A and it sucks. I don't blame the processor, I blame the 770 chipset.

I would suggest buying an old 580x AM2 mobo and a 5000be over the Phenom because of $ to performance ratio. My old 580x/5000be will probably go back in this weekend if I don't feel to lazy.

its NOT the 770 chipset its the bios on ur board, the TA770 from biostar dosnt have these issues once you learn the trick to overclocking the k10's(gotta change the northy multi for one thing!!!)

[Mussels]

Maybe I shouldn't have sad "trying to fool people". The correct words would be "fool people."

As a Palit employee, I am sure that you know that many, many gamers just look at the number ( in this case Geforce 8 ) and the amount of memory.

I am an admin in a gaming community and beleave me when I say, most gamers have no clue about core/memory speed, the amount of shaders, the difference between GDDR2/3/4, the difference between 128bit/256bit/320bit/etc... and so many other things that effect a cards performance. I know that, Palit knows that, my grandma knows that...

Now, let me quote something from the palit website:



Now, you come here and tell me that the goal is not to fool gamers???

Gaming reality? Crysis on 800x600 is not exactly what i call "gaming reality".
Escape from memory capacity bottleneck? The 8500GT IS THE BOTTLENECK for 1024MB.

Now let me quote something from the press release:



The lead in avant-garde graphics card design to the world? Jeezz...
"Ready to rock the market?" Lets change that to "Ready to rock the market on 800x600"
I probably don't need to tell you this, but the old ATI X1300XT ( released two years ago ) is faster then the 8500GT Super+ 1024MB...

And yes it's true that these cards can be usefull in CAD or other software, but don't think for a second that Palit is targeting CAD users...
as much as me and jelle argue in other threads, i agree 100% with everything said here.

[ChillyMyst]

PS i posted that b4 reading this page, im glad Palit_Guy stoped by honestly, and if his boss reads this: This is the way to get to the hart of the gaming communit, as the post above and the pm i sent to pg say, word of mouth and honesty are FAR more powerfull then fake marketing bs and adverts.

as i have said b4, benchmarks are all well and good but many times they are done on systems that are nothing like what the avrage gamer is using, i mean WileE for example has a quad overclocked, thats not what a normal everday user/gamer would have, most gamers dont have anything close to that.

what would sell alot of people i know is if they could get some numbers of systems simlar to theirs with diffrent products, numbers that are done under real world conditions not 3dmark or bench demo's.

alot of sales is knowing what to say to talk up the good points of a product without giving somebody a faulse impression that they are getting the world.

example, the changes you have made and that jelly mess reccomended, honestly those where and are things i would have reccomended BUT most companys wouldnt think of changing to descriptions that are realistic because they think it would cost them sales.

as i stated in a pm i sent, i think palit would do well to get some CAD type users where LARGE fraim buffer is usefull, have them try the cards against what they have or against 256 and 512 mb versions of the same cards, then have them send you their experiances, use some as quotes on the product pages, this would show REAL WORLD USERS oppenions and experiances using the cards for something that they would be usefull for, as apposed to gaming where they are as you know just to slow.

talk up the good points, better cooling for the 8800gt and the 8800gt being ready for future games that will use more video ram.

its all about balance.

on thing i think would improve your site is adding a "products" link at the top of the page, maby even a pulldown like other companys use that links you to gfx cards, mobos, exct, the current main page isnt that user friendly, i have sent a few ppl there and had to tell them to hit site map to get to the products pages.
this isnt a hard fix, and it could really improve your image and help users find your goods easyer.

also talking to newegg/zipzoomfly/bzboyz and other such online stores and getting them to start carrying your products would be VERY helpfull to palit, you would beable to add ah "where to buy palit" button to each page that dirrects the person to a page on your website that has a list of the top companys offering your products for sale.

personaly i think the biggist one would be newegg in the states, if you can get them to carry your cards you gain alot of sales and name recognition, newegg is the place to get your name out there, and their rep is GREAT, even people from other countrys check newegg for products and prices, i would say that its the most known hardware site worldwide(if they only shiped worldwide or setup newegg in other countrys.....)

well i gotta go help make dinner, hope this info helps, and if you need ANYTHING feel free to conntact me, i will be happy to do anything i can to help an honest company out :)

[KieranD]

woah i never expected to see a palit representative here in the tpu forums woah that is a helpfull company i will defiantly be buying palit

just wanted to ask where to buy a 8800gt now there's flebay but the 1gb card there is dear btw im in the UK can someone recommend what to get for around £150 including shipping coz thats what im willing to spend on a card

im very interested in a palit card seeing as they have better cooling and very a very high quality product and the cheapest price for a 8800gt if palit can have a high quality product for a cheap price then why not other company
do you do ati cards? not that i want one right now just incase i recommended a friend or family member

prolly wont get a new card untill next year LOL coz i still use my ati x800gt thats served me VERY well

[Palit_Guy]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I cover the US so I'm no help on where to buy one in the UK, sorry.

Yes, we do ATI as well.

[Jelle Mees]

Thanks for the vote of confidence!

I cover the US so I'm no help on where to buy one in the UK, sorry.

Yes, we do ATI as well.

Your still alive :p
Thaught something happened, you didn't reply to my last email... :)

[Tatty_One]

The only place I can find a Palit (as opposed to XpertVision.....sister company I beleive) is at Amazon Market place, the Sonic 512MB OC version is £158.

Mine unfortunatly came from the US.

[KieranD]

any idea where i can get a xpertvision card i think i thought it was just the same company as palit maybe the palit guy can tell us

[jpierce55]

check ncixus.com, they have the Palit 3870.