HD3850 x2...No Joy

[Dark Horse]

Hi All,

I have been doing this overclock thing for a while but I think I am missing something with these new ATi cards (HD 3850 x2 in Crossfire config).

At the Stock settings on the video cards I am getting a 3Dmark06 score of: 7418. Based on what I am reading here, that seems low. The system will not run 3DMark03 or 3DMark05; it crashes when running either.

Perhaps you guys can tell me your thoughts and provide some insight. I am providing the system information below. Thank you for your time and input.

Here is the system:
Pentium D 805 (2.66 GHz running cool at 4.01 GHz)
P5W DH Deluxe MoBo
4GB Quad Channel DDRII PC 6400 RAM
MS Win XP x64 SPAK 2
2x Gigabyte HD 3850, 512MB, 670 GPU Clock/700 RAM Clock, Crossfire configured, confirmed in CCC; Max reliable settings so far: 715 GPU Clock/860 RAM Clock
Driver Packaging Version 8.43-071016a-050244C-ATI
Provider ATI Technologies Inc.
2D Driver Version 6.14.10.6734
2D Driver File Path System/CurrentControlSet/Control/Video/{295674B0-2244-4B59-B4B2-014C267063D9}/0000
Direct3D Version 6.14.10.0540
OpenGL Version 6.14.10.7055
Catalyst® Control Center Version 2007.1016.2138.36845
AV Stream (T200) Driver Version 6.14.10.1070

1. I've had the cards operational at 715 GPU Clock/860 RAM Clock
2. I'd like to get a BIOS that will allow me to push these cards' settings.
3. I think I read that I can use an HD 3870 BIOS that will allow me to run these cards much higher and control the cooling better. Is that correct?

Thanks again,

dh

[DanishDevil]

Power Supply?

I wouldn't flash your 3850s with a 3870 bios...

You do have both Crossfire bridges on, right?

Are you ABSOLUTELY SURE that your Pentium D overclock is stable?

PS: No such thing as Quad-Channel DDRII. It's dual. Sorry :)

[Xazax]

your CPU is a serious bottle neck, not matter how much you OC'ed it... a E2810 Oced to 3Ghz can stomp it...

Get an good X38 board, pair it with a Q6600/E8400 and your scores will be rocking in the 12k range.

[Dark Horse]

Maybe I should get a Q6600; that chip works with this board, though I have not looked to see if I can overclock it using the bus on this board (Asus P5WDH Deluxe). But I don't want to just throw money at it. I think I should be getting better scores with this set-up, and I'd like to work through it first.

Yes. Both Crossfire bridges are on. The CPU Overclock is Rock Solid.

Re: "Quad Channel." That's right, it's marketing...They're actually 4 sticks tuned within the same range, but it is true: they run as two dual channel sets.

So, any suggestions before I throw a processor at this problem? I'd really like to increase the rig's performance first, then maybe I'll throw a new proc. at it later.

Any ideas?

dh

[trog100]

"The CPU Overclock is Rock Solid"

if my system ran 2006 but not 2005 or 2003 i would not think the cpu was rock solid.. in fact i would take it to mean the opposite..

if u want high score in the 3dmarks thow u need a faster system.. this applies to the benchmarks more than games.. it will probably game okay..

trog

[DanishDevil]

Again, what kind of power supply do you have?

How does it crash in 3dM03 and 05? Does the program crash? System restart? System lockup? Blue screen?

Processor is seeming to be the weak point, though I don't know a whole lot about Intel CPUs. Listen to these other guys. They know their stuff ;)

[Scrizz]

aren't there some patches for the HD2k/HD3k for 3dmark?
your cpu is definitely holding you back, my 805@3.7 couldn't compete with my e4400 @2.0

[DanishDevil]

There's the October 07 patch that adds additional support for newer graphics cards. If you don't have that, download it here (http://www.futuremark.com/download/hotfix_oct07/).

[Dark Horse]

Thanks for all of your help.

The CPU Overclock has run flawlessly for the past two years and I had no problems with the original X1900 All-In-Wonder card, even when I tweaked it for overclock (which became my stock operating mode).

These are not BSODs, they are graphics related and occasionally I'll get a VGPU Recovery and have to re-boot, too.

3DMark06 does not crash but it runs dog slow 30 - 50 FPS on the Troop Carrier Delivery and Hangar Bay Battle scenes and 20 - 39 FPS on the zeppelin scene ...0 to 1 FPS on the mountainous landscape CPU tests; it's almost impossible to watch and wait because it is so slow. The graphics are presented in excellent quality compared to '05 and '03 (Colors on the sea serpent, two colored forest lights, shadows move perfectly against the zeppelin bulkheads, gunwales and superstructure) but it is slow!

3DMarkCrash= Crashes with on '03 and '05 with Horizontal multicolor fragmented bands and dots. Requires reboot. Can occasionally get a GPU Recovery but that still requires a reboot, as far as I can tell.

PSU= Rosewill 950 (former was a Seasonic 550; bumped this spec to accommodate the 2 Gigabyte HD 3850 cards and possible Q6600 CPU)

I just installed the Patch DD. I'll let you know how it works.

Again, I've had the cards operational at 715 GPU Clock/860 RAM Clock
I'd like to get a BIOS that will allow me to push these cards' settings.

All suggestions and assistance are welcome.

Thanks again

dh

[DanishDevil]

Not so sure about the Rosewill PSU's quality. Honestly, the Seasonic should be enough for your system. There are reviews on Newegg that show graphics card artifacting that were solved by a PSU swap, defective units, and unstable systems with this PSU to blame. I would be leery of buying ANYTHING rosewill. NEVER skimp on a PSU or go out on a limb on one. Buy one with GREAT reviews from TRUSTED review sites. And you DEFINITELY don't need 950W for your system. Check out this PSU Calculator (http://www.extreme.outervision.com/psucalculatorlite.jsp) to give you an idea of what you need (or would need with a q6600).

Let us know how the patch works out, and if that doesn't help you out, I might try swapping your PSU. I'm running my system with a 3870X2 on an Enermax 620W and it's fine.

[Dark Horse]

The update works DD; thanks for the recommendation.

The PSU is not cheap; the spec is good. It is quiet, powerful and it was highly rated everywhere I did my research. I always buy Seasonic but I was persuaded that this particular Rosewill is good quality (RX950-S-B Extreme). If you have something specific I should see, that contradicts this research, please let me know.

The PSU calculator site recommends 849W for my system with a Q6600 @ 3.1 GHZ and 966W for my system with a Q6850 @ 4.0 GHz (another CPU I am considering); It seems to be in the ball park.

Now for the situation:

I replaced an X1900 All-In-Wonder card with these two Gigabyte HD 3800 cards.

The X1900 got the following results:
Stock Core of 500 and 477 Stock Memory Clock: 3DMark05=8967

The Dual HD 3850 crossfire configuration for the following results:
Stock Core of 669 and 700 Stock Memory Clock: 3DMark05=11526

One of these cards alone should produce better results than that, regardless of the CPU.

The HD 3850s each have twice the memory of the 256 MB on the X1900 (four times the memory in xfire), a higher clock rate on the GPU and the Memory, there are two of them versus only 1 X1900 and the best I can "squeeze out" is a 28% increase?!

That makes no sense.

Using the Stock settings, without regard for the CPU -and on a linear scale, these cards should be producing a minimum 2x the results in GPU power alone, 34% increase on core clock x2, and a 23% increase based on memory clock x2, and a 50% increase for 4x the memory, if the xfire is even remotely efficient.

Being Conservative I figure should be seeing results like this:
Stock Core of 669 x2 and 700 x2 Stock Memory Clock: 3DMark05=23044

Since I am considering a new CPU, I need to reconsider the PCIE data path on the board, as well. Is anyone here familiar with the specs on the PCIE X16 versus PCIE2 datapath and interface speed?

Is there something in the PCIE X16 datapath width and the memory datapath width and the device clock speeds on this motherboard that is bottle-necking the data xfer out of the PCIE bus and across the system?

The cards have the power and by all rights they should be producing far more dramatic results unless something on the system is constraining them (other than the CPU). They have the memory and the processing power onboard, as well as the datapath between them to compute massive amounts of data (the xfire datalink) but the results are not evident.

My only conclusions are that the cards are bad...which I doubt; or that the datapath between the system and the cards is not wide enough or fast enough to carry the data the cards can "inhale" and "exhale."

Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

dh

[DanishDevil]

The update works DD; thanks for the recommendation.

The PSU was not cheap; the spec is good. It is quiet, powerful and it was highly rated everywhere I did my research.

Now for the situation:

I replaced an X1900 All-In-Wonder card with these two Gigabyte HD 3800 cards.

The X1900 got the following results:
Stock Core of 500 and 477 Stock Memory Clock: 3DMark05=8967

The Dual HD 3850 crossfire configuration for the following results:
Stock Core of 669 and 700 Stock Memory Clock: 3DMark05=11526

One of these cards alone should produce better results than that, regardless of the CPU.

The HD 3850s each have twice the memory of the 256 MB on the X1900 (four times the memory in xfire), a higher clock rate on the GPU and the Memory, there are two of them versus only 1 X1900 and the best I can "squeeze out" is a 28% increase?!

That makes no sense.

Using the Stock settings, without regard for the CPU -and on a linear scale, these cards should be producing a minimum 2x the results in GPU power alone, 34% increase on core clock x2, and a 23% increase based on memory clock x2, and a 50% increase for 4x the memory, if the xfire is even remotely efficient.

Being Conservative I figure should be seeing results like this:
Stock Core of 669 x2 and 700 x2 Stock Memory Clock: 3DMark05=23044

Since I am considering a new CPU, I need to reconsider the PCIE data path on the board, as well. Is anyone here familiar with the specs on the PCIE X16 versus PCIE2 datapath and interface speed?

Is there something in the PCIE X16 datapath width and the memory datapath width and the device clock speeds on this motherboard that is bottle-necking the data xfer out of the PCIE bus and across the system?

The cards have the power and by all rights they should be producing far more dramatic results unless something on the system is constraining them (other than the CPU). They have the memory and the processing power onboard, as well as the datapath between them to compute massive amounts of data (the xfire datalink) but the results are not evident.

My only conclusions are that the cards are bad...which I doubt; or that the datapath between the system and the cards is not wide enough or fast enough to carry the data the cards can "inhale" and "exhale."

Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

dh

Do you mean 3DMark06 or 3DMark05? I thought you said your two 3850s couldn't run 05???

Also, a few things I think you're misunderstanding :slap::


3DMark06 is EXTREMELY CPU-intensive, and it is in fact the first of the 3DMark series to incorporate CPU score into the total score. That's why you're seeing the record scores on 5+GHz CPUs and single GPUs like the 2900 and 8800U.
When you put two cards into Crossfire, their memory does not add up. Two of your cards yields a total of 512MB vRAM. That's why the 512MB 3850s were released so quickly, because 256MB of vRAM will limit four of them in CrossfireX.
3DMark06 scores don't double if you double your cards. I'm not sure exactly how they are calculated, but I went from about 9000 Marks to 11000 Marks going from a 3870 to a 3870X2.
Crossfire is relatively new, and drivers don't offer twice the performance on programs. Some games for example will get NO benefit of two cards, and some will get OVER twice the performance. Google some Crossfire reviews and look at how varied performance increases are depending on the program you're running. 1+1 in Crossfire's case rarely equals 2.
You are definitely NOT being conservative with a score of over 20000 for your system. Here a TechPowerUp!, the current leader for a 3DMark06 score is Deagle:
Deagle- q6600 @ 4.15ghz 3870 Crossfire @ 1026 Core 1323 Mem 3dmark 22094 OS - XP
As you can see, his system owns the sh*t out of both of ours.

And don't feel bad. I've learned all this recently by reading these forums. They're a fountain of knowledge. I'd use the search function and look at threads about Crossfire, 3850s, and 3DMark06 scores (especially this one).

As far as PCI-E x16 vs. PCI-E 2.0, cards are not currently fast enough to take advantage of PCI-E 2.0, however they will be in the future. For anything less than two 4870X2s, I can't imagine "needing" PCI-E 2.0. To give you an idea, my 3870X2 is not even PCI-E 2.0 compliant, as the PCI-Express interconnect chip that connects both GPUs on the card itself isn't 2.0 compliant. Don't buy a new board for this reason.

And keep in mind, many many many of the high scores in the 3DMark06 thread are held by people with Q6600s. If you want a good benchmarking score, a Q6600 on low resolutions is a good way to go. For good gaming, you're gonna be fine with your 3850's, and your FPS should increase down the road with better drivers. Read my thread (http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=53033) about my experience with my card. Trog has a lot of good points about 3DMark06 scores. You'll learn a lot just from that thread and the scores. I would recommend the Cat 8.1's as well, seeing the difference with my 3870X2.

Feel free to PM me if you've got any additional questions :toast:

[KainXS]

I say return both of those 3850's and buy a non gigabyte 3850, the gigabyte 3850 you mentioned has memory rated for 700mhz meaning that you got screwed because even the Ati reference board 3850's has memory rated at 900mhz which most times overclock to 1000+, so . . . yeah

http://www.legionhardware.com/document.php?id=721

mine is clocked at 840/1040 right now and even at stock it will get 8000 points easily so that looks like a score for 1 card, can you verify crossfire is working correctly

return those cards if you can and buy yourself a good good cpu if you can and another 3850 with standard memory

as for your problem I would say the cpu is murdering your performance

[tkpenalty]

Hi All,

I have been doing this overclock thing for a while but I think I am missing something with these new ATi cards (HD 3850 x2 in Crossfire config).

At the Stock settings on the video cards I am getting a 3Dmark06 score of: 7418. Based on what I am reading here, that seems low. The system will not run 3DMark03 or 3DMark05; it crashes when running either.

Perhaps you guys can tell me your thoughts and provide some insight. I am providing the system information below. Thank you for your time and input.

Here is the system:
Pentium D 805 (2.66 GHz running cool at 4.01 GHz)
P5W DH Deluxe MoBo
4GB Quad Channel DDRII PC 6400 RAM
MS Win XP x64 SPAK 2
2x Gigabyte HD 3850, 512MB, 670 GPU Clock/700 RAM Clock, Crossfire configured, confirmed in CCC; Max reliable settings so far: 715 GPU Clock/860 RAM Clock
Driver Packaging Version 8.43-071016a-050244C-ATI
Provider ATI Technologies Inc.
2D Driver Version 6.14.10.6734
2D Driver File Path System/CurrentControlSet/Control/Video/{295674B0-2244-4B59-B4B2-014C267063D9}/0000
Direct3D Version 6.14.10.0540
OpenGL Version 6.14.10.7055
Catalyst® Control Center Version 2007.1016.2138.36845
AV Stream (T200) Driver Version 6.14.10.1070

1. I've had the cards operational at 715 GPU Clock/860 RAM Clock
2. I'd like to get a BIOS that will allow me to push these cards' settings.
3. I think I read that I can use an HD 3870 BIOS that will allow me to run these cards much higher and control the cooling better. Is that correct?

Thanks again,

dh

Its kind of obvious that the Pentium D is holding you back, that score is usually what people get with netbusted CPUs. Example Lazzer408, got only 9k as well with a X1950PRO CF setup, but in 3D Mark 05, however, once he upgraded to a E6600, his score almost doubled. Netburst suck, period. As shown, 8Ghz P4 vs a FX62 at 2.6, FX62 still tramples the 8Ghz P4.

Get a new CPU instead of trying to overclock the HD3850s. Something like a Q6600 CPU would be the best choice.

[Dark Horse]

Thanks for all of the information. You pretty well summed it up in that one post. I really do appreciate your time and insight.

BTW: I added to my last post regarding the PSU. I am still interested in your comments, if you feel the spirit move you.

Thanks again DD.

And, thanks to everyone here who has contributed to helping me get a handle on these cards and the current environment.

I am off to read the suggested threads and links.

dh

[DanishDevil]

As for the PSU, I wouldn't run my system on it if you paid me $200 to use it. I stick to name brands when going for power supplies. Keep in mind, it's supplying power to every thing in your computer. Without proper power, electronics don't work right, and you've wasted all your money on your machine. Let me know what your wattage is from that PSU Calculator at full load. If you want to be sure, I would swap it out and see if it changes anything. It can't hurt, right? And just another number figure, my system with a massively OC'd Athlon X2 and a 3870 never pulls over 350W at the wall, monitor included :)

And both Kain and tkpenalty have solid points. If your cards do in fact use memory clocked 200MHz below the ATi reference design, I would complain. Besides, 3850s and 3870s are coming WAY down in price. If you can get your money back, grab two of the cheaper HIS 3870s off of Newegg for just over $200 a piece :rockout:

[Dark Horse]

Is this the one?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161218
HIS Hightech H387QS512NP Radeon HD 3870 512MB 256-bit GDDR4 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported IceQ3 Video Card - Retail

Thanks

dh

[Dark Horse]

Okay.

I just RMA'ed the Gigabyte 3850s and ordered the HIS 3870 replacements.

I also ordered a Q6600.

I can get the Q6600 to 3.0 GHz on this board, along with the 3870s, that should give me a good boost

[DanishDevil]

That's the one baby! They dropped 5 more dollars since I last looked :)

I think you'll be VERY happy with those cards. Compared to the much more expensive HIS cards on there, the ONLY difference should be that the others are factory overclocked, which is RIDICULOUS to pay almost $50 for.

I think you'll also be VERY impressed with the performance of the Q6600. By the way, if you live near a MicroCenter, cancel the order, and reorder the 3870s, and get the Q6600 at MicroCenter for $199+tax.

If you end up having stability issues once you get your new stuff set up, I would recommend these PSUs in the same price range as the Rosewill:

WOW. This is a deal.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817256010

SINGLE +12V rail at 80A. Great PSU for a great price after rebate.

Other than that, anything from Antec, OCZ, or Silverstone should do you just fine. As far as multiple or single +12V rails, a single will ensure you don't overload any split rail, and is recommended by some for high-power video card systems.

I am astonished at what the PSU Calculator gave you. I just configured my system, but at 1.8vCore and 3.6GHz, and my dream watercooling rig, and it's returning 665W. Are AMD processors really that power-efficient?...Just answered my own question. Your CPU at 3.6 uses about twice as much power as mine at that speed. Shutting up now...

[Dark Horse]

I am a huge fan of Seasonic; I like some of Corsair's offerings; I also like a Silverstone too, when the get it right, they get it right; Zalman seems to be moving in with some decent stuff, too. I use to like Fortron but they seem to have gone to a lesser spec. these days.

Anyway, I do not expect any problems with this PSU; it has worked fine for the past few months since I replaced the Seasonic 550.

Thanks for the info though DD. You've been a great help. I'll let you know how this build works out.

BTW: I built a q6600 for my son for Christmas with this same PSU. I put an 8800 GTS in there with very nice SLi RAM on an ASUS P5N32 Premium in an Antec 900 case. I clocked it at 3GHz using the stock cooler in that case and it runs cool as a cucumber! I was jealous once I built it and he had to pry it from my hands (just kidding of course, pay no attention to my broken fingernails).

thanks again,

dh

[DanishDevil]

No problem man. You better reply to this thread and let us know how they worked! And make sure I get a PM with info on how well those HIS cards OC'ed. Fixing to pick up one or two myself :toast:

[trog100]

one 3870 card will draw about 8 to 10 amps max.. 100 to 120 watts.. in crossfire they do not draw twice that amount.. mainly because they never both run flat out.. say 15 amps or 180 watts.. sometimes one card dosnt even bump up to 3d made..

two cards will run off one 12 volt 20 amp rail.. they dont neeed a super psu.. just good quality one..

my system with one 3870 card draws about 275 watts from the wall while gaming.. with two it would draw about 350 watts.. no need for 1000 watt psus..

any half decent 600 watt psu will have power to spare..

but watts on their own mean nothing.. they need other figures to back em up..

with my 1680 x 1050 max resolution monitor.. one 3870 card is enough for me.. i tried two and went back to one..

thow with my current system i might have kept two simply for banging out good 3dmark scores.. he he

with low resolution benching its cpu limited.. with high resolution gaming its grafix limited.. always has been always will be.. a P4 is a bit behind the times now thow..

trog

[DanishDevil]

Thanks trog. DH - you can learn a lot about 3870 crossfire from this guy :toast:

[Dark Horse]

Here it is so far...

q6600@3.01 GHz
2x HIS HD3870
Vista Ultimate (yeah I know, but it is my business to know the OS)

It's rockin' real good.

I don't have to much time to mess with it right now or to push and test the config but when I do, I'll tell you guys how is is running.

I want to take it to 3.3 GHz and push the cards, too.

Thanks for all of your help!

dh

PS I went with my old seasonic 650 for this build and it works great. It uses MUCH less power (several hundred watts less) than the Pentium D 805 @ 4.01 GHz.

[DanishDevil]

Glad to hear that everything's working out DH! I hoped you grabbed those HIS cards off the egg before they got their $30 price jump! And yeah, a 650 seasonic should power that system perfectly. Keep in mind the PSU can change how much power is being drawn from the wall as well!

DD

[Source]

Hey Trog check out my specs for my latest build and tel me what you think I should be getting 3Dmark wise.

Also which drivers are best for the X2's ?

EDIT: I used that PSU calc and it said I needed 771 watts... sheeeesh.

[Nitro-Max]

I use the 8.2 optimized Extreme G driver on my x2 best ive seen so far.

available from here. http://www.tweakforce.com/

[DanishDevil]

Hey Trog check out my specs for my latest build and tel me what you think I should be getting 3Dmark wise.

Also which drivers are best for the X2's ?

EDIT: I used that PSU calc and it said I needed 771 watts... sheeeesh.

Send him a PM to make sure he knows you asked him for something.

[trog100]

check out freaks thread.. ignore the super high scores have a look thru.. see what system compares to yours speed wise and such..

the idea is to turn freaks thread into a 3xxx series reference thread.. everyone should know what score is reasonable for their system then..

http://forums.techpowerup.com/showthread.php?t=48426

trog