*picture Leak* Msi 9800gx2

[divinebaboon]

No the picture is not leaking lol, excuse my corrupted grammar. And I'm sure some of you saw this already, but this is for the people who haven't.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/996/msigeforce9800gx201aq2.jpg

http://img258.imageshack.us/img258/8433/msigeforce9800gx202mj0.jpg

And Please, stop staring at her boobs.;)

[PrudentPrincess]

And Please, stop staring at her boobs.;)
Look at that side boob, oh wait, thats my side boob. :laugh:

[hat]

Wooooot! No picture!

[oli_ramsay]

Wooooot! No picture!

I can see it :wtf:

[PVTCaboose1337]

Its long...

[hat]

I can see it :wtf:

I couldn't see it. Now I can.

[divinebaboon]

Its long...

That's What She said! :laugh:
Oh btw here's a comparison between that and the HD3870X2
Both of them are the same length. The nvidia just looks longer because of the extra boxy plastic.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8879/9800gx2hd3870x2uc9.jpg

[ShadowFold]

And Please, stop staring at her boobs.;)

huh wat

[hat]

Actually the GX2 is very slightly longer. No problems though. If you can fit an X2 you can fit this.

[divinebaboon]

Actually the GX2 is very slightly longer. No problems though. If you can fit an X2 you can fit this.

Naw dude they really are the same length. the nvidia is jsut shot with a different camera so it's more 3d. the Radeon pic is 2d
look
http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5995/3d2dxc5.jpg
You know how stuff closer to you looks bigger than it is far away,same idea here
The top of the Nvidia's plastic box looks longer than the base,because it's closer to the camera.
original link (http://en.expreview.com/?p=275)
The length of a graphic card sometimes reflects the card’s performance and the market place in the same gen. look at these new flagship card, they got the same card size, 267mm.(but because of 9800 GX2 have a dual slot shell, so it just look bigger)

[wolf]

i think they wouldhave done well to make 2 short cards into the box, have 1 beefy power surplus for the 2 of them, and then 1 beefy ass fan in the ass of the box...

[fitseries3]

the 3870x2, 9800gx2 and 9800gtx all are the same exact length as an 8800gtx. if a gtx will fit in your case any of the new cards will fit. the only card longer than a 8800gtx is a 2900XTX.

[Duffman]

wait, thats my side boob

should we be stairing at your sideboob?

[flashstar]

The 2900XTX never came out. What you are referring to is the OEM 1GB 2900xt. That was a full-length pci card--- 12.5 inches?

[fitseries3]

no, i have seen a few ES 2900XTX's. i know they were never released.

[imperialreign]

the 3870x2, 9800gx2 and 9800gtx all are the same exact length as an 8800gtx. if a gtx will fit in your case any of the new cards will fit. the only card longer than a 8800gtx is a 2900XTX.

at least they're not as wide as the Sapphire 1950 dual was

[jammy86]

so its just as long.. but twice the boards... am I missing something?

JAmes.

[divinebaboon]

so its just as long.. but twice the boards... am I missing something?

JAmes.

Well nvidia couldn't find a way to fit 2 GPU cores on one PCB so they had to use two.
ATI managed to put 2 GPU on the same PCB.

[mandelore]

cmon, nv, surely you can at least manage a single pcb solution?

then we wont say ur x2 cards are actually TWO cards.

consiquently, in all fairness, you would have to compare this to 2x 3870x2's ;)

[candle_86]

no there is one PCIe connector just one. That makes it one card

[mandelore]

no there is one PCIe connector just one. That makes it one card

no.


2 cards, one pci connector

2 pcbs = 2 cards

1 pcb = 1 card

its a cheap trick tbh. 2 cards, 1 pci-e merging bridge

[imperialreign]

The only thing about nVidia's solution that I could reason with, would be the fact that each GPU has sole access to all components on it's card; whereas with the 3870x2, each GPU has to share everything (except for MEM, which each GPU has it's own allotment).

Although, I seriously doubt my assumption. I think it was just a panic response to the success of the 70x2.

[mandelore]

The only thing about nVidia's solution that I could reason with, would be the fact that each GPU has sole access to all components on it's card; whereas with the 3870x2, each GPU has to share everything (except for MEM, which each GPU has it's own allotment).

Although, I seriously doubt my assumption. I think it was just a panic response to the success of the 70x2.

I believe that ATi/AMD's x2 has two individually accessed set of memory etc bridged by the internal crossfire chip. unless im wrong, everything is only shared upon passage via the crossfire bridge.

anyways, ATI's design vs NV's is far superior.

If NV really cared they would get an x2, take it apart, copy its basic plan then marge their own design into a similar setup. a 1pcb solution, with FAR better cooling ability, space saving etc...

1 slot waterblock cooling on ATI's x2 anyone? can you say the same for NV's offering?

[candle_86]

can we say a bunch of fanboies. Because thats what you all are, a bunch of ATI fanboi's. The card is no thicker or longer than the 3870x2 and please give me proof from a reputible site saying this thing runs dangurously hot? You can't can you, you can get shit from the Inquierer which is known to be ATI biases, to the point of there hatred for Nvidia seething, and would prolly tell you a 9800Pro would be a better buy than a 9800GTX. So honestly find me proof of anything, or shut up and stop being a bunch of little fanboies.

It is quite obvious mandalore from everything you spew from your mouth ATI is a god, well here is an idea get a life, read a review and get the better product

[imperialreign]

can we say a bunch of fanboies. Because thats what you all are, a bunch of ATI fanboi's. The card is no thicker or longer than the 3870x2 and please give me proof from a reputible site saying this thing runs dangurously hot? You can't can you, you can get shit from the Inquierer which is known to be ATI biases, to the point of there hatred for Nvidia seething, and would prolly tell you a 9800Pro would be a better buy than a 9800GTX. So honestly find me proof of anything, or shut up and stop being a bunch of little fanboies.

It is quite obvious mandalore from everything you spew from your mouth ATI is a god, well here is an idea get a life, read a review and get the better product

dude . . . cut the crap :shadedshu Just because we don't agree with your muddled view doesn't mean that one needs to become frustrated over it and resort to such speech

I can't speak for everyone here, but most of us are not ATI fanbois. Quite a few of us are ATI loyal, though - but there's a difference between fanboi and loyal.

You're words do come across as fanobish, though.

Some thoughts:

2 PCBs does not equal one card. It's one offering, but still comprises 2 individual cards that have been stitched together.

2 PCBs both stouting a GPU which is quite well known for running at Chernobyl temps, and positioning them facing each other is a prime example of how thermal dynamics operate. heat rises - the heat output from the lower GPU will roast the upper. There is no proof needed - it's basic physics. If you place a glass of water 1 inch above a hot burner on a stove - does the water not become just as hot? Will the water not boil sooner or later, even not having direct contact with the burner? Granted, it does take longer than having direct contact, but it will still happen.

Introduce a fan to the mix, and you can remove a good portion of the heat - but you'll counter that advantage by wrapping a metal case around it. Now you've gone to how a oven works - two burners, a metal casing, and a vent.



Two PCBs do not a single card make.

[DanishDevil]

Two PCBs do not a single card make.

I concur. Is this card even a dual-PCB design? From the pictures here, I can't tell.

And thank God the picture's not leaking, or she'd leak milk on your motherboard and short it!

[hat]

A dual PCB card would be pretty hard to design any aftermarket cooling for...

[DanishDevil]

They do.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/images/products/DD-GX2_04.jpg

It's called a $200 waterblock.

[mandelore]

can we say a bunch of fanboies. Because thats what you all are, a bunch of ATI fanboi's. The card is no thicker or longer than the 3870x2 and please give me proof from a reputible site saying this thing runs dangurously hot? You can't can you, you can get shit from the Inquierer which is known to be ATI biases, to the point of there hatred for Nvidia seething, and would prolly tell you a 9800Pro would be a better buy than a 9800GTX. So honestly find me proof of anything, or shut up and stop being a bunch of little fanboies.

It is quite obvious mandalore from everything you spew from your mouth ATI is a god, well here is an idea get a life, read a review and get the better product

Wow, please dont wet your pants on my account.

I will not shut up, I point out obvious facts, and a do prefere ATI cards over NV, as they are better engineered. If you bother reading what I have posted, I am urging NV to do what ATI does and design a single pcb solution.

Another fact, I have never stated anything about a dual pcb design being akin to an inferno etc.. I have simply stated a one slot dual pgu cooling design is far aesthetically pleasing, and more practical, not to mention cheaper.

It appears you have had some sort of episode so I wont poke a stick at you while you are twitching on the floor :rolleyes:

Basically, ATI has infact designed a better offering here, NV should go back, redesign a similar approach, and can then have a simply awesome card.

Grow up, im not attacking NV, im suggesting how their quick-fix solutions could be better designed

Now, moving on, as Im not about to let someone degenerate a thread into a pointless argument...

[InnocentCriminal]

Well said!

[Grings]

Well swiftech done a riser kit for the 7950 gx2, so hopefully they'll do a new one for this card
http://img.techpowerup.org/080227/picture-web.jpg
http://img.techpowerup.org/080227/picture-wb-v2.jpg

[wolf]

and a do prefere ATI cards over NV, as they are better engineered.

so better engineered cards have been consistently losing to nvidia for going on 18 months now?

and whether or not the 3870x2 is on ONE pcb, its still 2 GPUs crossfired together. which means it has to be compared to 2 nvidia gpu's

sure they mite consume SLIGHTLY less power, and generate SLIGHTLY less heat, doesn't mean they're better if you can't get as much fps from them, iunno about you but fps is pretty much what im after in a gfx card.

[InnocentCriminal]

... iunno about you but fps is pretty much what im after in a gfx card.

Image quality? FPS isn't everything my friend...

Well swiftech done a riser kit for the 7950 gx2, so hopefully they'll do a new one for this card

:eek:

You mean, "Well, Swiftech have made a riser kit..." - youth of today... :shadedshu

[DanishDevil]

:eek:

You mean, "Well, Swiftech have done a riser kit..." - youth of today... :shadedshu

Don't I know it. My mom's a school nurse in Santa Ana, and I correct her on her grammar whenever I speak to her, because her mind is being polluted by the youth there.

And the risers make it really look like two cards :)

[wolf]

Image quality? FPS isn't everything my friend...


to be honest i cannot tell the difference in image quality between ATi and Nv cards, what i can tell the difference between is FPS.

the only other differences i would say are some very very slight AA differences, and that ive noticed ATi cards taking a bigger hit from the same AA level.

surely thats much better engineering.

[Grings]

You mean, "Well, Swiftech have made a riser kit..." - youth of today... :shadedshu
:o

[kylew]

to be honest i cannot tell the difference in image quality between ATi and Nv cards, what i can tell the difference between is FPS.

the only other differences i would say are some very very slight AA differences, and that i've noticed ATi cards taking a bigger hit from the same AA level.

surely that's much better engineering.

Considering that ATi initially dropped hardware AA in favor of shader based AA, yet are achieving similar frame rates, that's what I'd call better engineering. One of w1zzard's latest reviews shows an 8800GT having more of an AA performance hit than a 3870, which stinks of better engineering, plus the fact that nvidia has used 8800s as their next gen cards without any real improvement from the leaks, seems like they're struggling with performance too. I know ATi did the same with the 3XXX series, but at least they dropped the manufacturing process, power requirements, temps and prices (more than half as of now). Not to mention that crossfire generally has more improvements over SLi and scales nearly proportionally to the cards added (quad crossfire with fear comes to mind).

[candle_86]

Wow, please dont wet your pants on my account.

I will not shut up, I point out obvious facts, and a do prefere ATI cards over NV, as they are better engineered. If you bother reading what I have posted, I am urging NV to do what ATI does and design a single pcb solution.

Another fact, I have never stated anything about a dual pcb design being akin to an inferno etc.. I have simply stated a one slot dual pgu cooling design is far aesthetically pleasing, and more practical, not to mention cheaper.

It appears you have had some sort of episode so I wont poke a stick at you while you are twitching on the floor :rolleyes:

Basically, ATI has infact designed a better offering here, NV should go back, redesign a similar approach, and can then have a simply awesome card.

Grow up, im not attacking NV, im suggesting how their quick-fix solutions could be better designed

Now, moving on, as Im not about to let someone degenerate a thread into a pointless argument...

maybe you should suggest to ATI how to design a GPU so they can compete in the market. They are beaten in every price bracket. Even 450 if the 9600GT SLI is faster than the X2. They dont have a single good offering on the market, so design means shit when there cards are crap on preformance. Maybe ATI should learn how to produce a directX 10 card instead of riding on the DX9 curtails. The GX2 will be the fastest card out there, is a dual slot solution and will cool itself just fine. Dual PCB offeres benifets over dual GPU in board design and effecincy. In case you forget the 7950GX2 only ran hot in an improporly cooled case. There isng a size diff between the GX2 and the X2 and the GX2 is more effiecent design. So why dont you go back to the ATI side and stop being a troll

[InnocentCriminal]

Calm down, try and be a bit more mature with your arguments, makes you look like an ass man.

[candle_86]

im making a point, the reason the ATI and Nvidia sections where made was to keep you fanbois away from the right minded graphics enthusaists. I dont understand yall, if ATI does something its right and NVidia is wrong. Youd play ATI if it gave you 5 FPS max but looked better than 100 FPS on Nvidia simply because it looks better kinda people.

[InnocentCriminal]

You obviously know more about myself than I do...

[candle_86]

i know about ATI fanboies or loyals as i guess yall prefer to be called.

[InnocentCriminal]

Actually I'm not a fanboy. I'll buy whatever component gives me the best performance and features (that I need) for my budget. I'm as far away from a 'fanboi' as you can get my friend.

[das müffin mann]

i know about ATI fanboies or loyals as i guess yall prefer to be called.

comming form a nvidia fanboy, anyway maybe we should just drop all this fanboy crap

[newtekie1]

Who cares if it is one PCB or two? You can say it is a patch job it you want, but nVidia is just using a design they already know works and have drastically improved it. Aftermarket cooling shouldn't be as bad as the 7900GX2 since the cooler is sandwiched between the two PCBs. That means a single waterblock can be used to cool the card.

Don't say that nVidia can't do a single PCB dual GPU card. They did it with the 6600GT GPU.

All the fanboys want to talk about how nVidia's card is poorly designed. What do they know? Nothing. If the card performs well, then who give a crap.

[das müffin mann]

maybe you should suggest to ATI how to design a GPU so they can compete in the market. They are beaten in every price bracket. Even 450 if the 9600GT SLI is faster than the X2. They dont have a single good offering on the market, so design means shit when there cards are crap on preformance. Maybe ATI should learn how to produce a directX 10 card instead of riding on the DX9 curtails. The GX2 will be the fastest card out there, is a dual slot solution and will cool itself just fine. Dual PCB offeres benifets over dual GPU in board design and effecincy. In case you forget the 7950GX2 only ran hot in an improporly cooled case. There isng a size diff between the GX2 and the X2 and the GX2 is more effiecent design. So why dont you go back to the ATI side and stop being a troll

are you kidding me as of late ati has managed to compete with nvidia, the lastest benchmarks report the x2 out performing nvidia's dual solution, granted they havn't offically lauched it or its drivers yet, but early reports indicate that the x2 is out performing it. the 3870's are great cards i don't get why your bashing ati so much, if it wasn't for them Nvidia's prices would be astronmical, as for the 9600 sli thing where are you getting your information from, because all teh benches ive seen so the x2 clearly beating the 9600 sli setup, the only thing that out performs it on occasion is two 8800's in sli, i like both companies and im runnig both cards from each company, can we just drop all this fanboy crap

[jbunch07]

i wanna see ati make a stab at nvidia buy using 2 3870x2 pcbs and sandwiching them together "like nvidia" and call it a 3870x4 haha

jk...ati doesn't need to do that but it would be kinda funny :D

[das müffin mann]

Who cares if it is one PCB or two? You can say it is a patch job it you want, but nVidia is just using a design they already know works and have drastically improved it. Aftermarket cooling shouldn't be as bad as the 7900GX2 since the cooler is sandwiched between the two PCBs. That means a single waterblock can be used to cool the card.

Don't say that nVidia can't do a single PCB dual GPU card. They did it with the 6600GT GPU.

All the fanboys want to talk about how nVidia's card is poorly designed. What do they know? Nothing. If the card performs well, then who give a crap.

well said:toast:

[candle_86]

are you kidding me as of late ati has managed to compete with nvidia, the lastest benchmarks report the x2 out performing nvidia's dual solution, granted they havn't offically lauched it or its drivers yet, but early reports indicate that the x2 is out performing it. the 3870's are great cards i don't get why your bashing ati so much, if it wasn't for them Nvidia's prices would be astronmical, as for the 9600 sli thing where are you getting your information from, because all teh benches ive seen so the x2 clearly beating the 9600 sli setup, the only thing that out performs it on occasion is two 8800's in sli, i like both companies and im runnig both cards from each company, can we just drop all this fanboy crap

8800GT's in SLI would easily beat it, not sure what your smoking.

[das müffin mann]

thats what i said, and there are a few benchmarks that show the 3870x2 beating it and viceversa it all depends on the test system, that and the drivers are much more mature

[mandelore]

oh dear... now your calling me a TROLL?? LMAO

do i jump in every nv thread and trash it? no, I know damn well NV has been holding the crown for quite some time.

I was "merely" (I guess you dont understand?) pointing out that at the end of the day they have put 2 cards together as one package, where ATI have went away and made 1 pcb which does the same job.

You simply cannot deny thats more innovative. Im not talking performance, efficiency or whatever god damn thing you think im attacking. Im talking about graphics card engineering innovation. Yes, NV has done it b4, and I was stating why hadnt they went and tried to design the same with their latest gen cards. Its lazy imo. If you cant understand that i dont know what else I can say. I dont have anything against NV, which you appear to assume I do?

NV has killer cards and im not denying that. BUT, 2x 3870's in crossfire is outperformed by a single 3870x2, that says there are benefits to a single pcb design.

I dont want to argue, especially when im not throwing the insults here. Please calm down, dont take my questioning of NV engineering as a full on attack on NV. Thats just crazy talk :rolleyes:

[kylew]

8800GTs in SLI would easily beat it, not sure what you're smoking.

Corrected :D. Seems like you're an nVidia fanboy. I prefer ATi personally, but there's no point jumping on anyone who says that. It's when you act the way you've been acting that you should have the "fanboi" tittle. Come on, calm down, we're talking about computer components. I've used this analogy before, but it's like telling some one, who like different food to you, that they are wrong for linking that food, and because they don't overly praise what you like, that they are wrong and that their opinion is wrong. Opinion is opinion, but there's nothing wrong with discussions on your opinion, just don't get overly worked up, this hobby is meant to be about fun. :roll:

[InnocentCriminal]

... just don't get overly worked up, this hobby is meant to be about fun.

Exactly!

[divinebaboon]

Oh come on guys, we should be starting an argument over her boobies, not the card she's on. ^_^

[InnocentCriminal]

Oh come on guys, we should be starting an argument over her boobies, not the card she's on. ^_^

I'll drink to that...

:toast:

:rockout:

[mandelore]

Oh come on guys, we should be starting an argument over her boobies, not the card she's on. ^_^

lol, for all we know, she's as flat chested as a Orangutan and its all "metal filler" :laugh:

[InnocentCriminal]

Nothing wrong with metal! ;)

\m/

[Skrabrug]

And Please, stop staring at her boobs.;)

Sorry :(

[das müffin mann]

I'll drink to that...

:toast:

:rockout:

+1 started drinking to that about an hour ago:D
:toast:

:p

:rockout:

[divinebaboon]

lol, for all we know, she's as flat chested as a Orangutan and its all "metal filler" :laugh:

Well maybe she's flat to you westerners, but in China we are lucky if we see this kind of chick. Most women there have either one A or two A, some even triple A. No lie. My cousins are all flatbreads. :shadedshu

[jbunch07]

+1 started drinking to that about an hour ago:D
:toast:

:p

:rockout:

+2 :toast:

im an American and i thought her boobs looked pretty good! :rockout:

[Skrabrug]

Well maybe she's flat to you westerners, but in China we are lucky if we see this kind of chick. Most women there have either one A or two A, some even triple A. No lie. My cousins are all flatbreads. :shadedshu

buddha had huge bewbs though?

[imperialreign]

odd how much transpires when one's away for 12 hours . . .

the only thing I have left to add to the drawn out debate - nVidia has had the performance crown again for a couple of years now, and ATI has done an amazing job of catching up after the fallout of the merger. But, I feel nVidia becomes complacent with their lead, and we end up with cards like the new GX2 when they feel threatened. Now, I'm not saying it's a bad offering, but I really feel that if nVidia had spent some more time with R&D first, they could've put out something better. I mean, we saw the first leaked pics of the GX2 within a couple weeks of the 3870x2 release date announcement - and those pics were so sketchy upon release, most of us here didn't even think they were legit.

TBH, though, I really don't see the GF9 series going all too well for nVidia, though, considering they're not much more advanced over the GF8 series. I think nVidia felt pressured into moving forward with their new series, instead of holding out until their new GPU is ready. Unless the green camp has something up their sleeve right now with the GF9s, I forsee ATIs 4000 series overtaking them as far as performance goes.




. . . just some thoughts; back to the drinking! :toast::toast:

[divinebaboon]

buddha had huge bewbs though?
Ya if you're into the flabby kind...:toast:

[das müffin mann]

yay more drinking:toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast: :toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast:: toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast::t oast::toast::toast::toast::toast::toast:

[divinebaboon]

Is this gonna get moved to the spam forum?

...


:toast::toast::toast::toast:

[das müffin mann]

no because im about to get back on topic, with this both nvidia and ati fanboys can agree that the drivers will initially suck at launch

[EastCoasthandle]

Will this nvidia part suck?! That's a real man's question :D

[das müffin mann]

lol only time and the market will tell, of course drivers for teh 3870x2 sucked at launch as well, its only natural in the industry never to get things right the first time

[jbunch07]

they need to hurry up and release the drivers for the x2 to run in crossfirex with an other x2,
im curious to see what kinda numbers 2 of them would do?

[das müffin mann]

i am also very curious to see how they will do im expect great results, i also want to pit nvidia's and ati's dual cards against each other in my system and see how they will do

[jbunch07]

well das if you can afford that go for it! but im about a week away from starting my new build, and will be getting 2 3870x2's cant wait!

[das müffin mann]

im working on getting an x2 next week also YAY FOR US:toast:, but maybe if i have some left after my upgrade ill see about getting the 9800x2...

[jbunch07]

good call...i would love to see how they do in the same system? im leaning towards the x2 to winning but its hard to say...just have to wait and see...

[das müffin mann]

i would like to wait until nvidia matures their drivers for it to make it a bit of a more even match

[jbunch07]

true im sure its like you said about the x2 drivers not working when it first came out, i bet thats what the deal is with the gx2

[das müffin mann]

ya but buy the time they mature, i will be able to afford one:roll:

[jbunch07]

true that...good luck with your upgrade!

[das müffin mann]

thanks, just waiting on my ram then the card is next on the list

[jbunch07]

sweet, that ballistix worked wonders for my system! i know u will love it!

[wolf]

Considering that ATi initially dropped hardware AA in favor of shader based AA, yet are achieving similar frame rates, that's what I'd call better engineering. One of w1zzard's latest reviews shows an 8800GT having more of an AA performance hit than a 3870, which stinks of better engineering, plus the fact that nvidia has used 8800s as their next gen cards without any real improvement from the leaks, seems like they're struggling with performance too. I know ATi did the same with the 3XXX series, but at least they dropped the manufacturing process, power requirements, temps and prices (more than half as of now). Not to mention that crossfire generally has more improvements over SLi and scales nearly proportionally to the cards added (quad crossfire with fear comes to mind).

you tell yourself whatever you have to, to make yourself feel better about ATi's lower performance.

alls i see is 8800 > 2900/3800, and thats that.

[TooFast]

That's What She said! :laugh:
Oh btw here's a comparison between that and the HD3870X2
Both of them are the same length. The nvidia just looks longer because of the extra boxy plastic.

http://img183.imageshack.us/img183/8879/9800gx2hd3870x2uc9.jpg


why would it be longer? its not 2 gpus on one board, its two 8800 cards glued together.
wich is kinda lame. nividia got lazy....:laugh:

[calvary1980]

lol Wolf, +1 for pointing that out TooFast.

- Christine

[TooFast]

[QUOTE=mandelore;676636]cmon, nv, surely you can at least manage a single pcb solution?

then we wont say ur x2 cards are actually TWO cards.

consiquently, in all fairness, you would have to compare this to 2x 3870x2's ;)[/Q


your damn right!! :toast:

[flashstar]

you tell yourself whatever you have to, to make yourself feel better about ATi's lower performance.

alls i see is 8800 > 2900/3800, and thats that.

Not everyone has a ton of cash for that extra 5 fps. I got my 2900 pro/xt for $200 shipped when 8800 gt's cost $280. I'm still within 5 fps of the 8800 gt though.

[TooFast]

I believe that ATi/AMD's x2 has two individually accessed set of memory etc bridged by the internal crossfire chip. unless im wrong, everything is only shared upon passage via the crossfire bridge.

anyways, ATI's design vs NV's is far superior.

If NV really cared they would get an x2, take it apart, copy its basic plan then marge their own design into a similar setup. a 1pcb solution, with FAR better cooling ability, space saving etc...

1 slot waterblock cooling on ATI's x2 anyone? can you say the same for NV's offering?



" with FAR better cooling ability" LOL on a 65nm.

[wolf]

yeah even with teh so called "crap" single slot 8800GT stock cooler my card never topped 65 degrees, wether or not anything is "FAR" better, lol, thats still way acceptable

and as for ATi's duel gpu card beiing FAR better, seriously, dont talk crud man, if it was FAR better then itd woop the GX2 by over 50% which it wont. FAR better nothing

[wolf]

then we wont say ur x2 cards are actually TWO cards.

consiquently, in all fairness, you would have to compare this to 2x 3870x2's ;)



remember wether its on one pcb or not, its still 2 gpus, with 512 ram each, internally crossfired, so it is still a dual gpu setup, no matter how its made.

[InnocentCriminal]

I've said it before so I'll said it again...

EDIT IS YOUR FRIEND!

We'll just have to wait and see how things pan out. Obviously ATi have the advantage in more mature drivers, but game support I guess is the biggest problem.

I'm dribbling just thinking about these two cards being pitted against each other. :drool:

[Bjorn_Of_Iceland]

nvidia is lazy. hehe

[InnocentCriminal]

Hence why you have two 8800GTs huh? ;)

I know what you mean, but they don't have to go down the single PCB route. Yeah ok, it makes more sense (to me) but y'know, they've obviously have done the dual PCB for a reason, that could be them being lazy or it could be the best way they can currently apply a single, dual GPU solution.

I'm with you on the lazy though.... ;)

[wolf]

EDIT IS YOUR FRIEND!


im really not that fussed about making 2 posts in a row, does it really bother you that much?

and i dont think its lazyness, they did a dual pcb once before, to make a single would mean a whole new design, whereas at this stage they can learn from the 7950GX2 blunders and hopefully improve on them, fingers crossed.

Not everyone has a ton of cash for that extra 5 fps. I got my 2900 pro/xt for $200 shipped when 8800 gt's cost $280. I'm still within 5 fps of the 8800 gt though.

if yours is o/c or modded (pro to XT ?) and your within 5 fps of an 8800GT your maybe not taking into account what an 8800GT oc can pull. im at 760/1836/1944, which is considerably faster than stock. and at the moment (at least where i am) the price difference is less than 10%

[newtekie1]

why would it be longer? its not 2 gpus on one board, its two 8800 cards glued together.
wich is kinda lame. nividia got lazy....:laugh:

Perhaps because they needed to make two gigantic holes in the PCB to allow air to be drawn into the cooler? That certainly is one blindingly obvious possibility.

And nVidia didn't get lazy, they used a design that they have already developed and know works with heavy improvement. There are several advantages to using 2 PCBs.

[wolf]

+1, my thoughts exactly. they've done it before, so this time hopefully they've rectified the pitfalls. especially driver support, and from the delays, it seems they really want decent drivers for the release.

good thing is since its G92 we know it should over clock well too.

i also think that 2 PCB's can work well, technically it shouldn't be any worse than a single pcb. that means they can make both single cards very well, which we know they can do (G92GT/GTS) and make a kick ass connection.

like always they (GX2 and X2) will probably work out like 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. its always tit for tat with these two...

[Xaser04]

are you kidding me as of late ati has managed to compete with nvidia, the lastest benchmarks report the x2 out performing nvidia's dual solution, granted they havn't offically lauched it or its drivers yet, but early reports indicate that the x2 is out performing it. the 3870's are great cards i don't get why your bashing ati so much, if it wasn't for them Nvidia's prices would be astronmical, as for the 9600 sli thing where are you getting your information from, because all teh benches ive seen so the x2 clearly beating the 9600 sli setup, the only thing that out performs it on occasion is two 8800's in sli, i like both companies and im runnig both cards from each company, can we just drop all this fanboy crap

Read the Techreport review for the 9600GT. It clearly shows the 9600GT SLI setup either matching the HD3870X2 in terms of raw performance or in some cases quite easily beating it (virtually level pegging with the 8800GT SLI setup).

COD4 - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/5
ET:QW - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/6
HL2:EP2 - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/7
Crysis & UT3 - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/8

(Please note the HD3870X2 doesn't appear in all of the graphs)

Firingsquads review (9600GT SLI performance preview) puts the 9600GT SLI very much in line with the HD3870X2 as well (albeit each setup wins some and loses some)

The 8800GT SLI setup however is faster in most (if not all) cases on both reviews.

ATI cards however do hold their own (discounting the HD3870X2 for this) when it comes to price/performance as the HD3870 is roughly equal in price (in the UK) to the 9600GT and the performance is very similar.

One thing I can't help thinking about is that Nvidia are simply releasing the 9800GX2 (and holding back on the proper next gen cards) to prove a point (ie that they won't let go of the performance crown easily, especially when ATI don't have anything to counter*)

*Assumes that Nvidia would counter CF HD3870X2 with Quad SLI.

EDIT thought I should note that depending on price v performance I may end up getting one of these 9800GX2's just for something to play with, or I may just stick with my G92 8800GTS and clock the nuts off of it.

[wolf]

i too think they have something truly next gen up their sleeve, but its a card they wont need to play until ATi counters with something worthwhile, so for now its cost effective refreshes, and why not? cheap and great performance for the users!

[das müffin mann]

Read the Techreport review for the 9600GT. It clearly shows the 9600GT SLI setup either matching the HD3870X2 in terms of raw performance or in some cases quite easily beating it (virtually level pegging with the 8800GT SLI setup).

COD4 - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/5
ET:QW - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/6
HL2:EP2 - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/7
Crysis & UT3 - http://www.techreport.com/articles.x/14168/8

(Please note the HD3870X2 doesn't appear in all of the graphs)

Firingsquads review (9600GT SLI performance preview) puts the 9600GT SLI very much in line with the HD3870X2 as well (albeit each setup wins some and loses some)

The 8800GT SLI setup however is faster in most (if not all) cases on both reviews.

ATI cards however do hold their own (discounting the HD3870X2 for this) when it comes to price/performance as the HD3870 is roughly equal in price (in the UK) to the 9600GT and the performance is very similar.

One thing I can't help thinking about is that Nvidia are simply releasing the 9800GX2 (and holding back on the proper next gen cards) to prove a point (ie that they won't let go of the performance crown easily, especially when ATI don't have anything to counter*)

*Assumes that Nvidia would counter CF HD3870X2 with Quad SLI.

EDIT thought I should note that depending on price v performance I may end up getting one of these 9800GX2's just for something to play with, or I may just stick with my G92 8800GTS and clock the nuts off of it.

i hate trying to compare benchmarks online for cards, it will give you an idea yes but they will almost always be different due to the difference in drivers, components, software what ever, btw thanks for the links, but as far as a single solution card goes, ati did a great job, i really want to pit the 9800x2 and the 3870x2 agaist each other, to see how they both will perform, but atm that will run me over $1000 to do so :(

[InnocentCriminal]

... i really want to pit the 9800x2 and the 3870x2 agaist each other...

Who doesn't (apart from uninterested/lazy scrote-faces)? I know I do, the exact same test bed just a clean install of the chosen OS. Urrrgh, we can only dream, unless we're stupidly rich and can actually do this. I know I would if I had the money. Crap I'd start my own enthusiast site.

[das müffin mann]

we need 2 people with almost idetical systems, one with ati and one with nvidia, then maybe we wil be able to see how they compare

[InnocentCriminal]

Yeah that's alternative way of doing things... ^^

[das müffin mann]

well maybe in a few months i can get the 9800x2, 3870x2 in a week :D

[calvary1980]

who are you kidding it's ATI drivers can never be trusted they either work or dont. ATI should chain up 50 chinese college students in a basement they need to spend some money on programmers.

- Christine

[das müffin mann]

you know nvidia doesn't always have super reliable drivers either, btw my ati drivers work just fine never had a problem with my 2900

[InnocentCriminal]

Yeah can't say I've ever really had a major problem with ATi drivers, and my nVIDIA chipset drivers are fine, apart from the craptastic IDE driver. HA!

[candle_86]

i can a hell of a lot of time even with the x800GTO i had a few months back if you remember.

[Tatty_One]

no.


2 cards, one pci connector

2 pcbs = 2 cards

1 pcb = 1 card

its a cheap trick tbh. 2 cards, 1 pci-e merging bridge

Well not really...a PCB comprises of a number of layers, each of those layers can be known as "PCB's" so technically you could argue that there is no such thing as a "single" PCB :D

[Tatty_One]

you tell yourself whatever you have to, to make yourself feel better about ATi's lower performance.

alls i see is 8800 > 2900/3800, and thats that.

You forgot to mention what a HUGE performance increase the HD3870 was over the 2900XT and how it took 4 driver releases for the 2900XT to reach it's full potential or even the fact that the HD3870 was actually released without any "official" driver support whatsoever....ohhhhh and that in the current top 5 performing cards on the market ATi only has one of them......but thats OK we all know that ATi cards always perform better because they have better architecture and better initial driver support.

Sorry, I got a bit carried away there, I have just ordered a 3870x2 by the way before anyone points the :rockout: and calls me an NVidia fanboi, I just like to tell it the way my twisted mind sees it, I for one am wrong at times but a rant here and there usually makes one feel sooo much better :D

[candle_86]

well said tatty

[kylew]

You forgot to mention what a HUGE performance increase the HD3870 was over the 2900XT and how it took 4 driver releases for the 2900XT to reach it's full potential or even the fact that the HD3870 was actually released without any "official" driver support whatsoever....ohhhhh and that in the current top 5 performing cards on the market ATi only has one of them......but thats OK we all know that ATi cards always perform better because they have better architecture and better initial driver support.

Sorry, I got a bit carried away there, I have just ordered a 3870x2 by the way before anyone points the :rockout: and calls me an NVidia fanboi, I just like to tell it the way my twisted mind sees it, I for one am wrong at times but a rant here and there usually makes one feel sooo much better :D

At least you try cards and don't just call fail and quote BS *cough^*. Fanbois don't deviate from their "piece of ass". Have fun with your 3870X2, I've just ordered one my self :rockout:

[jbunch07]

anyone seen a 3870x2 for less than $449?, going to buy one soon also... but thats the cheapest ive seen them.

[candle_86]

ive tried ATI before myself.


9600pro died

9800pro died after 2 years, just started artifacting for no reason

x800GTO died, artifacting no apperant reason

at least when i had an Nvidia card die, i knew why, i never did oc an ATI card

MX440 pushed to high

FX5200 pushed to high with voltmod

FX5900XT pushed to high

6600 256mb Pushed to high with voltmod

[das müffin mann]

anyone seen a 3870x2 for less than $449?, going to buy one soon also... but thats the cheapest ive seen them.

thats about the cheapest you will find them new, until (this is my prediction) the price goes down after the 9800x2 is released

[mandelore]

Well not really...a PCB comprises of a number of layers, each of those layers can be known as "PCB's" so technically you could argue that there is no such thing as a "single" PCB :D

yeah, but their classed as multi-layer pcb's, technically one functional pcb ;)

[jbunch07]

thats about the cheapest you will find them new, until (this is my prediction) the price goes down after the 9800x2 is released

hmm i was thinkin the same thing makes me wonder if i should wait till the gx2 comes out or just go ahead and get one...its really hard to wait though...

[das müffin mann]

im thinking they will lower the price the night before like they did for the 3870/50, i know im waiting to see, maybe a $50 reduction?

[mandelore]

i know the 3870x2 is awfully tempting, but i think its gonna be obsolete and is more of a stopgap till the nxt gen architecture comes out. Im waiting on a dually HD4000 card.
Till then my trusty 2900xt will see me right :)

[jbunch07]

yea thats what i was thinking, but if the gx2 costs more than 449 then they prob wont drop the price to much if any, does anyone know the actually retail price for the gx2?

[das müffin mann]

mid $600 ish

[jbunch07]

mid $600 ish

dang, if thats the case then they wont need to drop the price of the x2, would be nice if they did though :D

[das müffin mann]

ya though if they did they would make it a much more attractive offer, but atm ati will have the best price vs. performance advatage with about a $200 difference

[jbunch07]

very true!, and if the gx2 does outperform the x2 then maybe that will promote them to start development on the 4000 series...

[Tatty_One]

yeah, but their classed as multi-layer pcb's, technically one functional pcb ;)

I was kind of hoping you wouldnt say that, I knew my argument was flawed!

[Tatty_One]

ive tried ATI before myself.


9600pro died

9800pro died after 2 years, just started artifacting for no reason

x800GTO died, artifacting no apperant reason

at least when i had an Nvidia card die, i knew why, i never did oc an ATI card

MX440 pushed to high

FX5200 pushed to high with voltmod

FX5900XT pushed to high

6600 256mb Pushed to high with voltmod

I have to say, despite my comments in the post above, I have owned more NVidia cards than ATI but I have never had a prob with ATi in all honesty and tthe 850XT and 1800XT were without doubt at the time of their release, some of the best cards ever made IMO.

[wolf]

.but thats OK we all know that ATi cards always perform better because they have better architecture and better initial driver support.


again, whatever you guys need to tell yourselfs.... its your opinion that the architecture is better.

the FPS results speak for themselves.

At least you try cards and don't just call fail and quote BS *cough^*. Fanbois don't deviate from their "piece of ass".

speaking about anyone in particular?

and to throw out any suspicions of fanboyism, i have owned a few ATi cards (9200, 9800Pro, X1950Pro), all of which i loved dearly, but this time, NV wins guys come on.

[das müffin mann]

didnt we just get off this whole argument?

[jbunch07]

thought we did...guess not...

[wolf]

i think when people compare the 3870X2 and 9800GX2 theyre not looking at it the right way.

i keep hearing that ATi's is better cos its one card, and nvidias is crap because its 2.

people, once and for all, no matter how many PCB's they use, be it 1 or 8, both of these solutions are DUAL GPU, and thats all that matters, its not like cos ATi put it on one card its going to scale any better, and likewise but in reverse for the GX2, when theyre both out with decently mature drivers and we have some comparisons, then people can conclusively say which form is the better one.

but seriously, they are both a dual GPU solution, with 512 mb ram per Gpu. and thats that.

and about that ongoing argument fellas, ill drop it if you drop it. think what you want to think but it doesn't have to be stated as fact.

[das müffin mann]

i think when people compare the 3870X2 and 9800GX2 theyre not looking at it the right way.

i keep hearing that ATi's is better cos its one card, and nvidias is crap because its 2.

people, once and for all, no matter how many PCB's they use, be it 1 or 8, both of these solutions are DUAL GPU, and thats all that matters, its not like cos ATi put it on one card its going to scale any better, and likewise but in reverse for the GX2, when theyre both out with decently mature drivers and we have some comparisons, then people can conclusively say which form is the better one.

but seriously, they are both a dual GPU solution, with 512 mb ram per Gpu. and thats that.

well also went through this, we just think its lazy of nvidia to use 2 pcb's- i dont really care as long as it works, i plan on getting one at some point, but they could have put it on on pcb if they wanted but they didn't instead they just "glued" two 9800's together, which at this point we can't really tell if its bad or not, it sure doesn't sound bad:D

[wolf]

lol, yeah its a decent concept, personally i think it wouldhave been too expensive to R&D a single card, dual gpu solution, whereas theyve done dual card before and can maybe improve on what they got wrong.

then again its not like they've got no profits to play with...

and hey, what some people call laziness i call efficiency and energy conservation :P gotta look at the bright side rite ?

[das müffin mann]

i wish ati would scare them enough to drop the 9800x2 to about 400ish...i can dream ;)

[wolf]

to be honest i think theyre a bit scared the GX2 wont beat it, then again theres probably that doubt almost every time they make a new card, will it beat the competing card?

the good news about the refreshes going on is that anyone with a G80 or newer and a HD2900 or newer can sit tight till next gen.

[das müffin mann]

i must say the last two years have shown some great competitively priced cards on the market from both camps

[wolf]

+1 to that brother, i do consider myself and nv fan not really a fanboy, but for the last 6 months or so, ive been able to tell all my mates who ask me (im the tech head of the group) that no matter what brand or price point you buy at, you'll always get value for money.

no choice can really be shot down at the moment, as the price : performance ratio from both brands is phenominal

[candle_86]

ya though if they did they would make it a much more attractive offer, but atm ati will have the best price vs. performance advatage with about a $200 difference

that depends on how the GX2 does with retail drivers. It should be close to this

http://www23.tomshardware.com/graphics_sli2007.html?modelx=33&model1=1068&model2=867&chart=378

The HD3870 is comparable to the 2900XT CF maybe a lil faster and the GX2 should be a lil faster than the 8800GT SLI. So pay close attetion to that.

[mandelore]

i keep hearing that ATi's is better cos its one card, and nvidias is crap because its 2.

I believe you totally missed the initial point being made. It was not that the x2 was better than the gx2 due to one-pcb design, but rather its design i.e the actual layout of the card was better than the Gx2, which at the end of the day was 2 cards joined together.

Thats why i didnt understand all the hostility from candle. All i have been doing was making a point about how the card was designed, not about performance, price or whatever else.

Purely the engineering work gone into making the x2. Which is why I said, in comparison, ATI's dual gpu design was of a superior construction and more innovative against just sticking 2 cards together.

surely no one can argue with that??

[candle_86]

well i can, but i dont need more infractions today.

[mandelore]

well i can, but i dont need more infractions today.

lol

then theres no sense speaking to you if you cannot understand that engineerring 2 gpu's onto one pcb requires more attention, engineerring and innovation than joining 2 premade cards together???

how can you possibly argue with that?

its no different than saying (performance OBVIOUSLY not taking into account) that AMD's all-on-one-die quad core is more innovative than Intels 2xdual cores on one cpu.

reguardless of performance, more innovation, engineerring is required for AMDs offering compared to Intels. just so happens that the Phenom sux for the most part compared to what it should have been like on paper

[candle_86]

because i actully can, and have stated reasons before. But let me restate a few things for you.

First off there is the latancy issue with the ram configuration. Which in memory intensive apps over core intensive you would notice im afarid.

Second factor is heat, yes i know heat, but hear me out first. The X2 cools the first GPU with cool air and the Second with warm air hence the need for diffrent HSF materials. The GX2 cools both at the same time, negating that fact. Both are cooled at the same time with cool air, sure the exhasted air might be super hot but as long as the cores are kept cool who cards in all honesty.

Thirdly here and hear me out, Nvidia has done this before with great sucess, granted Quad SLI failed, but no one here doubts that the GX2 as a single card dominated all other single card products at the time. So its a tried and true method that we know works.

Forth and final, the power circutiry on the x2 is closer to the core than the GX2 and can cause interferance as the card gets older and it started to degrade, causing electrical interferance, now how long this takes to occur is anyones guess, but its like playing Russian Roulette, it could be 10 years or could be next week, they are untested for long time and we have no idea what the effects of having the power circutry so close are.

[wolf]

yeah to be honest im with candle, +1 bud!

making the X2 may have taken more engineering or whatever, but if nvidia can match or exceed, or even come really close by just "joining two premade cards" then isn't that smarter?

it is in my opinion.

[candle_86]

yes it is smater and cheaper actully on RnD time that Nvidia can use on the G100

Please remember 2006, Nvidia rehased the G70 and lost to the R580 in shader intesive games but didnt spend alot of time in RnD on G71, but concentrated on G80, while ATI spent alot of time on RnD for the R580 compared to the G71, and we all remember what happened at the end of 06 do we not?

[wolf]

thats the one im holding my breath for....

to compete with ATi all they really need atm is lazy quick fix solutions, and luckily for them, its got the customers very pleased, i know i am.

[candle_86]

well not really, remember it barly beats the Ultra which at this pricepoint most users bought a GTX or Ultra already and would not migrate to this card for 5-10% improvement tops. I know i wouldn't

[wolf]

theyre sitting pretty, its the first time since i joined the game where the next level ,8 series to 9 series for example, doesn't mean trade up!

hec if i had bought a GTX 13 months ago like i wanted to (strapped for cash at the time) i know i'd still be happy.

[candle_86]

excatly. Thats the point and in November the G100 should arrive, we've seen Nvidia do this before if you recall.

Jan 06 G71 arrives, its faster than G70 but not by much. The 7800GTX 512 can almost keep up with the 7900GTX and the 7800GTX can keep up with a 7900GT pretty much. Then bam Nov 06 Geforce 8 arrives and wham bam, Nvidia suprises everyone.

[wolf]

and from the rumors and "leaked" specs the G100 will be a wham bam indeed!

[candle_86]

no kidding, Geforce 9 is more of a hey, this is a rehash we have bigger plans, ATI's is more of, wait where tring to catch up damnit keep making new cores every 6 months.

[wolf]

+1, thats what it seems like to me too

i had heard that when AMD bough ATi they fired like 80%+ of the staff, is that true or what, cos if it is wtf?!?

[candle_86]

because AMD assumed they knew more. I think AMD would be doing much better if they kept the ATI staff and fired the AMD staff, we saw how well Phenom turned out

[mandelore]

ergh.. guys again...

I was NOT talking about performance etc etc etc... why cant u understand that?

I dont care if their 2 prebuilt cards perform akin to a 1pcb solution, you keep stating that im on about performance??? (although its been shown a 1 pcb solution vs crossfired solution is better)

look... ill make it real simple, as not for you guys to get confused:

1 card + 1 card = 2 pcb card package: pretty easy to physically do, not much engineering work needed. good performance, same as sli performance (i think)

1 card + 1 card = 1 pcb card package: technically more difficult, but more innovative with single card advantages. has been shown > than crossfired equivalent.

thats all im stating. dont know why u keep taking my points as an argument about how good or bad the gx2 is against the x2. Im talking about card design, not about branding here.

Anyways, im certain the NV offering would be quite a card if redesigned for 1pcb

[jbunch07]

ergh.. guys again...

I was NOT talking about performance etc etc etc... why cant u understand that?

I dont care if their 2 prebuilt cards perform akin to a 1pcb solution, you keep stating that im on about performance??? (although its been shown a 1 pcb solution vs crossfired solution is better)

look... ill make it real simple, as not for you guys to get confused:

1 card + 1 card = 2 pcb card package: pretty easy to physically do, not much engineering work needed. good performance, same as sli performance (i think)

1 card + 1 card = 1 pcb card package: technically more difficult, but more innovative with single card advantages. has been shown > than crossfired equivalent.

thats all im stating. dont know why u keep taking my points as an argument about how good or bad the gx2 is against the x2. Im talking about card design, not about branding here.

Anyways, im certain the NV offering would be quite a card is redesigned for 1pcb

well said!

[das müffin mann]

my opinion they're both gunna kick so much graphic ass

[mandelore]

anyways. enough on that argument allready :)

im full of cold and have no wish to continue it hehe.

edit:

i reckons a dual-core/gpu hd4000 has my name all over it :)

[jbunch07]

anyways. enough on that argument allready :)

im full of cold and have no wish to continue it hehe.

edit:

i reckons a dual-core/gpu hd4000 has my name all over it :)

no im sorry to tell you but it has my name all over! :D

[mandelore]

no im sorry to tell you but it has my name all over! :D

maybe it has a twin and it can be yours?

lol, who am i kidding, if it had a twin, they'd BOTH be mine!! muhahahaha :D

[das müffin mann]

clones!

[imperialreign]

again, I'm amazed how much goes on when one is gone for 24 hours.

Just my thoughts on a couple of things - I've owned ATI cards for 7 years now, and have never had a problem with any of my hardware or drivers. Aside from my two 1950 PROs, I think my fav card still has to be my X700 PRO, which even with the stock cooler has handled such fairly extreme OCing on my part, and lived to tell the tale.

Perhaps other users have had issues with some of their older hardware, especially dating to the era of the 2D + 3D graphics adapter era . . . but, from what I recall, every manufacturer had lots of issues with their initial 3D accelerators, nVidia included. Cooling sucked on everyone's cards, and many ran hotter than almighty hell on top of that (IIRC, the coolers on 3DFX cards could quickly burn you, even at idle temps). Everyone has improved over the last 5 years, so much so that hardware failures are rather uncommon; drivers are what you have to worry about, and truth be told, ATI's drivers do indeed tend to be more stable . . . but then again, are we comparing official release drivers to nVidia's countless beta releases?

Honestly, as I've said before, I'm ATI loyal. I've had some bad dealing with nVidia in the past, starting with how they brushed off all of us 3DFX owners and dropped support after the acquisition. Perhaps if I had found nVidia's customer support during that time to be more attentive and caring of customer's concerns, I would've ended up nVidia loyal instead. Not to say, though, that I'd never recommend nVidia hardware to someone, I just won't buy any with my hard-earned cash.

Anyhow, as to the whole debate - the way I see it as of right now, both the 3870x2 and the 9800 GX2 are on par with each other. TBH, I think the only reason nVidia went ahead with the GF9 series was out of pressure to stay one gen ahead of ATI. Although, if such is the case, they'll feel even more pressure before the year is out if ATI's 4000 series rolls out when planned.

I'm truly hoping that the GX2 will offer impressive performance for what it is and that nVidia has been able iron out their SLI a bit more, or else ATI's dual GPU offerings will start to stomp nVidia when the 4000 and 5000 series roll out.

[wolf]

sure the card design of an X2 is more technically difficult mandelore, sure its more innovative. and bravo ATi, really bravo. I was never confused by what you said, i just didn't really care that ATi made it single card, and in my opinion, exactly what the X2 is, wasn't nearly the best thing the company could have done as of late. thats all i'm stating. believe me i don't want to keep taking about his either.

and just so you know, and are not confused, i agree that the card design is technically more difficult, and perhaps more innovative.

done and dusted. wolf.

[Nick89]

The Thing that none of you brought up about the 9800GX2 is that becasue its using two PCB's there will most likly be a bottleneck between the two cards in the 9800GX2, that will most likely hamper performance of the card...:slap:

[KainXS]

The Thing that none of you brought up about the 9800GX2 is that becasue its using two PCB's there will most likly be a bottleneck between the two cards in the 9800GX2, that will most likely hamper performance of the card...:slap:

one word, no, bandwidth isn't the problem at all

I personally won't buy the 9800GX2 because since it has 2 multi layer pcbs then it should have twice the failure rate of a 9800, and if one pcb fails then the card is dead.

I'm waiting until the HD 4870 hits and then sticking it in hybrid crossfire with my HD 3850