SLI and CrossFire are scams to make you...

[Nick89]

Buy more than one video card. I'm completely serious with this, I'm just suprised no one has realized this.


In (1998) a video card company wanted to find a way to make its consumers want to buy more than just ONE of its video cards for there PC, and they found a way.

In 2004 SLI was released promising more performance in games if you bought 2 of the same video card (each the same price) and a special mother board, in 2005 Crossfire was released promising the same thing.

My bottom line is that when you get that second card for the same price as the first one and you dont get a 100% performance increase you're getting ripped off big time. :shadedshu

[jonmcc33]

I agree and people know this. The problem is that they will do anything for that extra performance boost...and in most cases they do not even need it.

[hat]

It works out for people like me though. Can't afford a high-end card, so get a midrange one and then another one at the same time. Usually ends up doing as good as a single high-end card, or better.

[erocker]

Crossfire works great for me! Some of my games I have to set up profiles which can be a pain but things look great when you have AA and AF cranked all the way up. It's not a scam. Sure it's a way for manufacturers to have consumers buy more cards but doesn't every business want to sell as much product as possible?

[Nick89]

It works out for people like me though. Can't afford a high-end card, so get a midrange one and then another one at the same time. Usually ends up doing as good as a single high-end card, or better.


No, no it doesn't. unfortunatly for the price of 2 8600's you could get a single card that is faster than both of those cards in SLI.

[Nick89]

Crossfire works great for me! Some of my games I have to set up profiles which can be a pain but things look great when you have AA and AF cranked all the way up. It's not a scam. Sure it's a way for manufacturers to have consumers buy more cards but doesn't every business want to sell as much product as possible?

if you dont care about getting ripped off for about 70% of the price for the second card, be my guest erocker.:roll:

[Dr. Spankenstein]

Nobody's MAKING you buy anything. The numbers are there to back it up. It works.

Whether you want to pay for the 25-50% performance boost is entirely up to you.

You and trog100 are going to get along nicely though...:rolleyes:

if you dont care about getting ripped off for about 70% of the price for the second card, be my guest erocker.

He has! and so have I. It's obvious you're looking for a fight OR are in the "manic" swing of your bi-polar jag. Go to bed...

[Nick89]

I know nobodys making me buy anything, and I dont buy cards for SLI or Crossfire. To me theres no point because its a very blatant waste of money to me.

Now when/if the day comes with a 100% performance increase then I'll think about it.

[erocker]

Ok, you have your standards, and others have thiers. To each thier own. Plus, I can afford it, I'm a computer enthusiast, so why not? It's all for fun and recreation anyways. You can go ahead and laugh at those who feel like me, but many don't think like you do. But like I said, to each thier own.:toast:

[Wile E]

And what about the people that have ultra high resolutions to deal with? No single card will run all the newest games maxed out on a 30" monitor. Hell, many single cards can struggle with a 24" monitor. SLI and Crossfire are not a scam. They work. Just because they don't work to your expectations, does not make them a scam in any way. That just makes them not right for you.

[btarunr]

Well, the future isn't going to be 'one mighty GPU does it all'. It's going to be 'many GPU's do it'.

[DaedalusHelios]

Lets not hammer Nick89 about it though. Its clear that its a case of "sour grapes". :)

[sneekypeet]

@ OP if it is such a scam why is that motherboard in your rig??????:shadedshu

what a load!!!!!!!:nutkick:

[btarunr]

They can't be scams because:

SLI / Crossfire boards have become affordable, I can get a multi-GPU capable P35 / NForce 650i SLI / NForce 570a SLI / AMD 790X based board, let's say I have just $160 this month to spend for a video card....I buy the inexpensive board, $160 worth card. Next month's pay (or whenever I have $160 to spare), I can buy another card, enable SLI/CFX, get a healthy performance boost. MSI has a very affordable AMD 790FX based board. I can buy that and a single HD3850 512M card...a 1 card every month...end of 4 months have a reasonably powerful 4x HD3850 setup with great performance, some bragging rights....of course, I should first choose a decent PSU :)

[ex_reven]

Ive seen a Porshe with two engines, two engines doesnt give it a 100% performance boost but rich people will still buy them lol. Same with a RAID 0 array (though a much more cheap example).

I think the reason for more people buying into it is that SLI and Crossfire is becoming alot more affordable, whereas previously only the elite had it.

[mandelore]

thing is, if you buy 2 cards and say get a discount on 1 due to an sli/crossfire bundle, you can then just sell the other card on full price and the manufacturer loses out

[Smartbomb]

They can't be scams because:

SLI / Crossfire boards have become affordable, I can get a multi-GPU capable P35 / NForce 650i SLI / NForce 570a SLI / AMD 790X based board, let's say I have just $160 this month to spend for a video card....I buy the inexpensive board, $160 worth card. Next month's pay (or whenever I have $160 to spare), I can buy another card, enable SLI/CFX, get a healthy performance boost. MSI has a very affordable AMD 790FX based board. I can buy that and a single HD3850 512M card...a 1 card every month...end of 4 months have a reasonably powerful 4x HD3850 setup with great performance, some bragging rights....of course, I should first choose a decent PSU :)

Would that PSU be an ABS Tagan ITZ-900?

[btarunr]

Would that PSU be an ABS Tagan ITZ-900?

No, any brand that meets calculations. I prefer ABS-Tagan and Corsair (SeaSonic). I didn't mention/recommend/suggest a brand, you're making me tell my preferences which I told. No harm done.

[Azazel]

its not a scam....people want more performance so they give an option to have better performance...they don't make you buy it...its optional...

[btarunr]

its not a scam....people want more performance so they give an option to have better performance...they don't make you buy it...its optional...

If you look at it one way, they do. Because they don't make a single GPU that plays everything (of a said timeframe) comfortably at any resolution, users are in a way forced to use multiple cards, beefy PSU's, boards, etc.

Doom 3 was the 'Crysis' of 2004, when the GPU's that were mainstream then, stuggled to run it properly. That was when the order was 'single powerful high-end GPU'. A little later we had the Radeon X1900 XTX, the GeForce 7900 GTX (both champion performers that could max out the game (run it in the 'ultra mode')). What about now? Just when we looked at the 8800 GTX specs, looked at the '128 Unified Shaders', '768 MB, 384bit'...etc, came a game (Crysis) that 8800 GTX couldn't max out. And when we thought the 9800 GTX would be the next best thing, it came as a rude nutkick...it could barely outperform the 8800 Ultra, even if it did, the leads weren't significant. Instead, it turned out to be a 'gluttonous 8800 GTS 512M with an extra gold-finger (3-way SLI). So companies hint us to spend relatively less on a single GPU, realise it isn't quite enough, end up spending more.

Where I could spend roughly $500 to buy a single 7900 GTX that could max out any game at its time, I still don't have a solution for the same roughly $500 that can max out any game of this generation now.

So, I'm left with building arrays of many GPU's, jacking up expenses, power consumption, heat, etc.

[Azazel]

If you look at it one way, they do. Because they don't make a single GPU that plays everything (of a said timeframe) comfortably at any resolution, users are in a way forced to use multiple cards, beefy PSU's, boards, etc.

Doom 3 was the 'Crysis' of 2004, when the GPU's that were mainstream then, stuggled to run it properly. That was when the order was 'single powerful high-end GPU'. A little later we had the Radeon X1900 XTX, the GeForce 7900 GTX (both champion performers that could max out the game (run it in the 'ultra mode')). What about now? Just when we looked at the 8800 GTX specs, looked at the '128 Unified Shaders', '768 MB, 384bit'...etc, came a game (Crysis) that 8800 GTX couldn't max out. And when we thought the 9800 GTX would be the next best thing, it came as a rude nutkick...it could barely outperform the 8800 Ultra, even if it did, the leads weren't significant. Instead, it turned out to be a 'gluttonous 8800 GTS 512M with an extra gold-finger (3-way SLI). So companies hint us to spend relatively less on a single GPU, realise it isn't quite enough, end up spending more.

Where I could spend roughly $500 to buy a single 7900 GTX that could max out any game at its time, I still don't have a solution for the same roughly $500 that can max out any game of this generation now.

So, I'm left with building arrays of many GPU's, jacking up expenses, power consumption, heat, etc.


thats the game producers fault for making games with to high settings :p

[btarunr]

thats the game producers fault for making games with to high settings :p

It's mutual, actually. NVidia aided development of several game engines , (id Doom 3 for example). Developers have access to nex-gen hardware, create games that run well only on hardware that's more advanced than what's selling in the market, so when the game comes out, people are in a way pushed into upgrades. I must credit ATi though. They worked closely with VALVe when designing the Source engine. The bes part is that Source games wouldn't look very aweful when used with mainstream hardware when the first Source game came out. VALVe kept adding to the Source engine piece-by-piece (example: HDR rendering was gradually incorporated into Source). Now, a game like HL2-E2 to me looks a visual treat on par with any of the latest games.

[Azazel]

they give you the option to lower the graphical settings..:) so its not like they are making you.

[btarunr]

they give you the option to lower the graphical settings..:) so its not like they are making you.

Right, but the fact that you're not able to play the game with decent level of visual detail is what pushes you to upgrades.

[blkhogan]

Ok, you have your standards, and others have thiers. To each thier own. Plus, I can afford it, I'm a computer enthusiast, so why not? It's all for fun and recreation anyways. You can go ahead and laugh at those who feel like me, but many don't think like you do. But like I said, to each thier own.:toast:


Can I get an amen? Preach it brother!!

[Kreij]

Xfire/SLI is not a scam, it's an option.
In the same way that a quad core CPU is an option over a dual core.

In many cases a quad will not give you 2x the performance of a dual, but sometimes it will.
Same for multi-GC setups.

I like to play SupCom at 2560x1600 at a playable frame rate.
What does your 4200 and your 1950xt give you when trying that ?

[ShogoXT]

I always thought id never do Crossfire, but now with directx10 and games not running as well as I thought....

Its slowly eating away at me. A month ago I was only mildly happy at the idea I might consider getting a single 4870 when it comes out soon... Now though.... I WANT A 4870X2 AND I WANT IT NAOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!! IL USE MY $600 FROM GOVERNMENT TO PAY FOR IT RIGHT THE FIRST FRIGGEN SECOND IT HITS NEWEGG!!! RELEASEE NOWWWWWWW!!!!

See how bad its getting? I used to not spend alot of money on video cards, id get like half off only amazing deals of downclocked stuff.

EDIT: Also this new 24inch monitor isnt helping it much either, im tired of running stalker in 1440x900 and it looks soooooo blurry.

[hat]

Not a good idea to buy the first ones out...

[btarunr]

Xfire/SLI is not a scam, it's an option.
In the same way that a quad core CPU is an option over a dual core.



Um...the apt analogy would be single-core to dual/quad core. Can I run my machine well enough with a single core these days? Nope. Because chip makers are using weaker single units to build a strong multi-unit (dual/quad core processor).

[spearman914]

I agree and people know this. The problem is that they will do anything for that extra performance boost...and in most cases they do not even need it.

I second that but if you have the money why don't you waste it to get some extra performance. Lets say in Crysis you get 1 FPS so why won't you pay for another .5 FPS. I know that sounds retarded but....

[Dr. Spankenstein]

Not a good idea to buy the first ones out...

Buying the first out of the gate can go both ways! I bought an HD DVD player when they were first released and it is awesome. It has incredible DACs to handle the analog 5.1 audio out, but it is a little behind as far as scaling/de-interlacing chips of the A2/A3 series. Then again the same features as mine in the latter model would cost you more than I paid 2 years ago!

Then there is the example of my HIS 3870s. I bought them as soon as they were released. They were reference design cards all the way. People got on board for pencil mods and hard mods.
Then the cheaper/newer models came out. Unable to find a way to pencil mod these cards, the difference in price didn't seem quite as justified. Not to mention the comonents seemed to be of lesser quality.

So first releases can go two ways. They could be buggy, untested junk OR the could be completely over-engineered, super hardware that will turn out to be the better buy (in the end analysis)!

Still, it's always a gamble.

[Nick89]

@ OP if it is such a scam why is that motherboard in your rig??????:shadedshu

what a load!!!!!!!:nutkick:

Because at one point in time I was going to get a second card for Xfire.. but I changed my mind.:p

[Nick89]

Xfire/SLI is not a scam, it's an option.
In the same way that a quad core CPU is an option over a dual core.

In many cases a quad will not give you 2x the performance of a dual, but sometimes it will.
Same for multi-GC setups.

I like to play SupCom at 2560x1600 at a playable frame rate.
What does your 4200 and your 1950xt give you when trying that ?

My max res on this monitor is 1280x1024, I play SupCom on max settings at max res, with very good performance actually(30-50 FPS avg) somtimes it chuggs a little when theres 1000 or more units though.

I also try to skip a gen with video cards, I'm planning to get a 4870X2 and maby a E8400 for my next system.

[Nick89]

Um...the apt analogy would be single-core to dual/quad core. Can I run my machine well enough with a single core these days? Nope. Because chip makers are using weaker single units to build a strong multi-unit (dual/quad core processor).

BUT, do you have to buy TWO processors? :)

[btarunr]

BUT, do you have to buy TWO processors? :)

You'll get my point when games such as Alan Wake come out. They claim to 'work best' with quad-core processors. So yes, you're buying a single processor but core-count 4.

[ShogoXT]

Either way it wouldnt be an issue if the had hardware that would at least run the games WELL?

Didnt used to be like this, usually if you bought high end you were set for a while. Now its still not enough.

[imperialreign]

Buy more than one video card. I'm completely serious with this, I'm just suprised no one has realized this.


In (1998) a video card company wanted to find a way to make its consumers want to buy more than just ONE of its video cards for there PC, and they found a way.

In 2004 SLI was released promising more performance in games if you bought 2 of the same video card (each the same price) and a special mother board, in 2005 Crossfire was released promising the same thing.

My bottom line is that when you get that second card for the same price as the first one and you dont get a 100% performance increase you're getting ripped off big time. :shadedshu

big reason why I continue to state that unless one can pickup both cards for dirt cheap, it isn't worth it.

For my two 1950 PROs, I only spent a total of $235; two cards for less than the price of one of them. Worth it? Absolutely, especially considering the cards ran $250/ea.

[DaMulta]

I beg to differ.....playing games at 1920X1200 full out maxed eats up one card, and the 2ed card really does help.

There is also the idea that you get more IQ with two cards IF you set it up that way.

Who cares if you don't get 100% more out of having 2 cards.












Dual/Quad core CPUs are a bigger scam going with your logic.

[Kreij]

The problem is not the cards, the problem is that the tech level of various components and the requirements of the gamers' themselves is pushing the hardware envelope.

Gamers' say, "I want 2560 x 1600 @ 4AA and 16 AF with HDR and FPS of at least 60".
Game Dev's say, "Here is your game with all the eye candy you want."
Proc Mfg say, "Here is a quad core CPU, it may keep up."
Monitor Mfg says, "Here is 30", enjoy."
GPU Mfg says, "We're fooked. Nothing can do that yet. Here's 2 GPUs that will get you closer."

Just my opinion. ATI and Nvidia are both working on more powerful GPUs. There is just nothing offered yet that can meet an extreme gamer's expectations.

Give it some time.

[imperialreign]

I beg to differ.....playing games at 1920X1200 full out maxed eats up one card, and the 2ed card really does help.

There is also the idea that you get more IQ with two cards IF you set it up that way.

Who cares if you don't get 100% more out of having 2 cards.




Dual/Quad core CPUs are a bigger scam going with your logic.



I absolutely agree; for example, even with my two aging cards I can play STALKER at damn near highest settings, only running a res of 1280x800.

Any games dating before 2007, though, I can play at full IQ at native res of 1440x900.


Dual GPUs can either give you more IQ at lower resolution, or higher resolution with less IQ - but, then again, the higher your screen res, the less AA is really needed . . .

[Nick89]

Dual/Quad core CPUs are a bigger scam going with your logic.

I dont see Duel/Quads as scams at all.... They dont have (SLI)QUAD READY RAM,(SLI) QUAD READY PSU's.....

[DaMulta]

there is something good about having SLI or CF ready hardware.

You don't have to look up your manufacture to see if it is computable for it. For example as you know and I know not every PSU will run a SLi or CF setup. The same thing can be said about memory, not every stick will work in every motherboard. Most of us knows those things that seem easy to us. We know what to look for.

These people don't know the difference when reading Wattage/AMPs/ Read reviews on PSU and so on. When they build a computer it's a total guessing game. They don't know to look up the motherboard makers qual list for memory/PSU/Video cards and so on.

These are the people that helps those people. When they buy a part with that logo on it, they will know that it works. It has been tested to pass their test to be able to put that stamp on it.

There is good in it, and yes there is marketing in it as well.The main point is that it does help the noobs feel safe stepping in the water. Which is a good thing right?

[Nick89]

I agree with you, I think we're all on the same page now. =]

[imperialreign]

there is something good about having SLI or CF ready hardware.

You don't have to look up your manufacture to see if it is computable for it. For example as you know and I know not every PSU will run a SLi or CF setup. The same thing can be said about memory, not every stick will work in every motherboard. Most of us knows those things that seem easy to us. We know what to look for.

These people don't know the difference when reading Wattage/AMPs/ Read reviews on PSU and so on. When they build a computer it's a total guessing game. They don't know to look up the motherboard makers qual list for memory/PSU/Video cards and so on.

These are the people that helps those people. When they buy a part with that logo on it, they will know that it works. It has been tested to pass their test to be able to put that stamp on it.

There is good in it, and yes there is marketing in it as well.The main point is that it does help the noobs feel safe stepping in the water. Which is a good thing right?


TBH, I completely agree with all that as well - but just wanted to add that I'd like to see more "Crossfire Ready" products become certified. Or at least, if a product is deemd "SLI Certified" trying to get it certified for Crossfire as well.

Like you stated, for those of us that know what we're dealing with, it's all good and those logos are just "badges of courage," IMO - but for the n00bs with Crossfire setups, they might look away from a product stouting only a "SLI Certified" emblem, thinking that it wouldn't be compatible with their hardware - especially PSUs and MEM, IMHO, should be double certified.

It all serves a purpose - but we also must keep in mind that the vast majority of merketing campaings in the tech world are aimed at the n00bs and initiates. The adepts don't pay much attention to marketing and advertisements, only spec sheets and 1337 reviews.

[Xazax]

Considering out the the populance who actually OWN enthusiast high end Discreet cards, there really is much of a market for SLI/CF about what %8? and out of that there are even less CF system people just dont seem to like the CF idea while Nvidia Marketed its SLI far more better and alot more people have SLI motherboards and 2 Cards.

But still point remains VERY few people actually have CF/SLI, and its not like THEY force it upon you.

[imperialreign]

Considering out the the populance who actually OWN enthusiast high end Discreet cards, there really is much of a market for SLI/CF about what %8? and out of that there are even less CF system people just dont seem to like the CF idea while Nvidia Marketed its SLI far more better and alot more people have SLI motherboards and 2 Cards.

But still point remains VERY few people actually have CF/SLI, and its not like THEY force it upon you.

very true. Although, after becoming one of that small percentage - I defi see the benefits, and am an advocate of multi setups . . . if you can get both cards for a great price.

Again, it'd be great if manufacturer's offered a package deal on more than one card, but they don't right now. If multi GPU setups becomes more prominent in the future (which i think it will be), perhaps they will . . .

[btarunr]

I wish card manufactuers launch 'Crossfire kits' or 'SLI kits' like we have matched pairs of memory sticks for dual-channel. When I buy two or more cards for SLI/CFX, I really wouldn't need the DVI/HDMI cables/HDTV cables/CD's of each card, not to forget the amount of plastic and paper that goes into making the packaging for each card.

[MadCow]

I wish card manufactuers launch 'Crossfire kits' or 'SLI kits' like we have matched pairs of memory sticks for dual-channel. When I buy two or more cards for SLI/CFX, I really wouldn't need the DVI/HDMI cables/HDTV cables/CD's of each card, not to forget the amount of plastic and paper that goes into making the packaging for each card.

I think eVGA's done that back in the 7xxx times, I think it was 2 special edition 7900GT's.

[Smartbomb]

Right, but the fact that you're not able to play the game with decent level of visual detail is what pushes you to upgrades.
That makes absolute sense...

[Ripper3]

Points of reference should be:
Moore's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law)
AND
Wirth's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirth's_Law)

Read them both. Moore's Law is a bit long, but you can easily skim, with all the highlighting thanks to the links to other wiki pages. Wirth's Law is plain and simple.

The main reason why doubling up works, with single-core moving to multi-processor and/or multi-core processors, and moving from single graphics cards to multiple graphics cards, is that there are regularly constraints in the hardware that mean they cannot make it any more powerful without excessive heat, extreme power consumption increases, etc.
SLi and Crossfire still have high power requirements, if comparing to a single powerful graphics card, but it allows for two seperate heat production zones, which can be managed easier than one much larger heat producer. For an enthusiast, one large heat producer is fine, we can just swap out the stock heatsink for something larger, to keep it cool, but regular users won't do this, for fear of breaking something, or their own lack of competency.
I actually believe SLi and Crossfire works. Yes, it's not a 100% increase, but considering that over time, components get cheaper, it regularly makes sense.
For example: Ignoring my PSU, if I were to have a Crossfire capable motherboard (I wish :(), right now, my most cost-effective upgrade would be to buy another HD 3850, if talking graphics. They're very very cheap at the moment. I bought my current one for about £110, before Christmas, and I can get one now for £70, sometimes less. That would be £180 spent on graphics cards. If I had spent £180 at the time I bought my first graphics card, I would have gotten a HD 3870 (the 8800GT was in really limited supply at the time), and although I would have the ability to add another, adding one more now would still cost an additional £100-110, with the performance being a minimal increase, considering the large price-tag.
Meanwhile, if I were to buy a a new high-end card now, I would have to spend £250+, and selling my current graphics card, I would only make about £50-60, if lucky.
So, yeah, the most cost-effective upgrade would be to go dual-graphics.

Basically, I think I started mumbling there so, Crossfire and SLi are very good, but it all depends on what you want out of your system.
They're both very very good for upgrades, as like I said, it's more cost-effective to add more, than replace out-right, and as ATi is using CrossfireX, it's getting even easier to upgrade. Start off with a cheap card, then add a faster one, once the prices come down enough. When prices change again, either swap out the older card, or add a third.

Oh, and I jsut remembered, when SLi premiered, it wassn't the greatest value, but it was decent. I remember seeing plenty of people buying the cheapest SLi boards they could find, and a 6600GT, which was later added to by another 6600GT. This sort of setup could sometimes match 6800s, yet was quite cheap, and the 6600GT was efficient, not needing a PCIe power connector for more juice, so it was low-powered too.

[batmang]

And what about the people that have ultra high resolutions to deal with? No single card will run all the newest games maxed out on a 30" monitor. Hell, many single cards can struggle with a 24" monitor. SLI and Crossfire are not a scam. They work. Just because they don't work to your expectations, does not make them a scam in any way. That just makes them not right for you.

^^^ I agree!

I play Call of Duty 4 and it made a huge difference for me when I got the second 3870. To me it was a worth while purchase, I don't regret it one bit. As long as your actually utilizing the second card, its worth it IMO.