NVIDIA's desperate stand

[W1zzard]

[Page=Introduction]
Introduction
After all the good reviews NVIDIA got for their brand-new 7800 GTX 512 MB, ATI had to come up with ideas how to respond to this. Instead of building better products which are available at launch date, their marketing guys sat down and put together the following presentation.

While some points in here do give food for thought, I think none of them are really serious and many could be thrown back at ATI.

As additional further introduction I would like to give you this picture without any further comment:
http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ATI/NVDesperate/images/stocks.gif

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[zOaib]

exactly what i was saying , ATi 16pipe architecture kicks the living daylights out of nvidias 24pipe ................ nvidia looses all muscle when it comes to Turnign up AA and AF in games ........... radeons are ahrcore video cards , all Ati needs to do is get their rear ends in the game meaning deliver their product on time and keep at it .:nutkick:

[Mussels]

all ATI needs is 24 pipe to own em. the low quality, low lifespan and sub-standard SM3.0 are all things i've complained about for some time, its good to see the big boys make a point out of it.

Yes wizzy, Nvidia can counter SOME of these. They cant counter the fact that setting the graphics quality equal to ATI's makes them run a helluva lot slower than ATI cards do...

[dsdsdk]

lol, i like the one about Mean time to failure!

did they completely forget that the core has been "reworked" and only uses 20watts more than the old 7800GTX? And 5 watts more than the X1800XT...

The 7800GTX idles at around 44celsius, same with 7800-512 due to the beefed up HS. The X1800XT idles at a wooping 60celsius! Talk about stressing the components..

(X1800XL uses 65watt, meaning that XT must leak a hell of a lot power due to the higher clockspeeds)

[SFOSOK]

No offense man, but that has got to be one of the worst and biased reviews I have ever read from ATI or Nvidia Fanboys. In fact I feel quite a great deal dumber from reading the whole thing. I mean come on man, have you ever used anything from the 7800 series at all? Ever? How bout from Nvidia? Its also very funny how you show how Nvidia has been late 7-8 times all the back till the 4k series yet you don't show that ATI has been late with their launches almost every single series with every card in the series. Nor did you commend Nvidias Stelar launch of the 7800 256's. If you are goin to do a review next time, please try not to make it so rediculously biased, because the only people you convinced were the ATI fanboy's. And frankley, I don't think they need convincing because of the meaning derived from the word "fanboy".

[zAAm]

WTF is it with nVidia and ATI getting up each other's asses? :wtf: Can't they just make their own products seem better by promoting them instead of creating a bunch of talk about how their competitor's products are inferior and such because of this and that. There are a few valid points, but that doesn't make it right anyway. This whole thing is unethical. Slideshows like these aren't going to make me buy an ATI X1800XT or a 7800GTX 512MB. I'll buy what I want because I draw my own conclusions. Leave it be fcol...

[arnoldo]

... This whole thing is unethical. Slideshows like these aren't going to make me buy an ATI X1800XT or a 7800GTX 512MB. I'll buy what I want because I draw my own conclusions. Leave it be fcol...

I second that...

[Mussels]

No offense man, but that has got to be one of the worst and biased reviews I have ever read from ATI or Nvidia Fanboys. In fact I feel quite a great deal dumber from reading the whole thing. I mean come on man, have you ever used anything from the 7800 series at all? Ever? How bout from Nvidia? Its also very funny how you show how Nvidia has been late 7-8 times all the back till the 4k series yet you don't show that ATI has been late with their launches almost every single series with every card in the series. Nor did you commend Nvidias Stelar launch of the 7800 256's. If you are goin to do a review next time, please try not to make it so rediculously biased, because the only people you convinced were the ATI fanboy's. And frankley, I don't think they need convincing because of the meaning derived from the word "fanboy".

Yo noob, what review? there is no review here. That info was posted by wizzard, but did not come from him. Read, pay attention, and stop acting like a stupid idiot.

[W1zzard]

this is no review .. i just got my hands on these slides and thought they might be an entertaining (read: not really serious) read. at least that's what i think

[SFOSOK]

Sorry bout that, missread it. I read the Slides somewhere else and then found this thread later. My comments were meant about the author, whoever that may be.

[dsdsdk]

Author is ATI PR dept...

[WiCz]

NVIDIA's desperate stand

Well i am no expert in the field of marketing but i would say creating such a presentation, filled as it is with half truths and sensationalist nonsense is truly a desperate act and at the very least one entirely transcendant of intelligence.

[Solaris17]

This whole thing is unethical. Slideshows like these aren't going to make me buy an ATI X1800XT or a 7800GTX 512MB. I'll buy what I want because I draw my own conclusions. Leave it be fcol...


third.....

[AMDCam]

I really am starting to hate ATI. First that one slideshow about how SM3.0 doesn't work, but this is pissing me off. ATI has nothing to compete against Nvidia, how dare they say they're better! Nvidia is more popular, more powerful, and recently WHEN THEY SAY THINGS THEY MEAN THEM. If ATI could just release a quality product they wouldn't have to stoop to the level of insulting Nvidia like that. I don't know who made it (I didn't read anything in the thread yet) but if it was anyone associated with ATI, SHAME ON THEM.

[wtf8269]

This is just stooping too low. They should have just admitted the 7800 GTX 512mb is the higher performing card. However it is outrageously expensive and the XT is still the overall better buy. Well, at least in my opinion it is. I just got mine 5 minutes ago and I really think it has the best overall value. Although like I said the GTX 512mb is truly the faster card.

[SFOSOK]

Author is ATI PR dept...


lol, wouldn't be surprised anymore actually. R520 is just not good enough for the price, Nvidia covered all their ends this round, the 512 was only created to put Nvidia Completely on top.

:nutkick: Guess who the green and the yellow ones are?


:banghead: Red for ATI

Edit: The best bang for buck is 7800GT/GTX 256 that has already been proven. They both also use less power and are single slot.




ATI better bring something to the table next round besides false promisses that piss off even their hardcore fanboys.

[Tabur]

ok, i think ATI has gone too far with this. I only hope that nVidia shows superiority without falling in "Childish games".

If ATI is gonna show things about nVidia, it should show good and bad things, not only bad which are the less by much.

The ONLY thing that nVidia lacks is the weird 4 aa, which it doesnt have, but it doesnt mean its a worse product because nVidia NEVER said they actually had it!

Now, the only thing nVidia is ignoring is the pricing, but im SURE they just wanted to know wether people would buy this new King of the Hill at an outrageous price. Every stock was out in less than a week, that clearly answers their questions.

untill now, im staying with my brand new 7800 GTX 512mb OC, which has lifetime warranty so i dont care about the MSRP :)

[mR Yellow]

Edit: The best bang for buck is 7800GT/GTX 256 that has already been proven. They both also use less power and are single slot.

No, actually the 1800XL is. With a little overclocking is faster than the 7800GTX 256. ;)

[gerrynicol]

No, actually the 1800XL is. With a little overclocking is faster than the 7800GTX 256. ;)


Well what about the 7800GTX "with a little overclocking" :rolleyes:

[mR Yellow]

Well what about the 7800GTX "with a little overclocking" :rolleyes:

Point is XL is cheaper!
BTW what do i get with a OC'ed 7800GTX 256?

I get 9200 in 05 with a XL :D

[gerrynicol]

@ stock speeds round about 8K ish(a quick google search)

[mR Yellow]

@ stock speeds round about 8K ish(a quick google search)

Not what a saw. Many places give it about 7600 - 7800. And thats not the 8000 club.
Now in terms of performance/overclocking/image quality, i think the XL is the best buy ;)

[WiCz]

Not what a saw. Many places give it about 7600 - 7800. And thats not the 8000 club.
Now in terms of performance/overclocking/image quality, i think the XL is the best buy ;)


Funny....i get 8500 + with my OC'd 7800GT and it only cost me £235

[mR Yellow]

Funny....i get 8500 + with my OC'd 7800GT and it only cost me £235

Very possible. I'm not dissing the 7800TX, im just stating what i read on the net.

[WiCz]

Very possible. I'm not dissing the 7800TX, im just stating what i read on the net.

Fair enough, the scores you quoted just sound a little low for a GTX when an OC'd GT performs considerably better :)

[AMDCam]

I think it's fair to say, the GTX and even GT have more headroom for 3DMark scores. I mean extra pipelines, release dates that actually take place within a decade of the original announcements, and they don't have these little charts going around telling everyone they're better, kinda makes (me) think that Nvidia might not need to retaliate because their product speaks for itself. The X1800's might compare pretty well but in most benchmarks the 7800GTX almost always pulls (even slightly) ahead of the X1800XT.

[shoman24v]

I get 8865 with my BFG 7800 256GTX OC overclocked even more (490/1350) with my AMD Athlon X2 3800+ @ 2.5GHz.

I'd like to have an ATi Card, But I traded my system for what I have now so I can't do anything about it.

I mean, A card with less pipes that's faster ;) More pipes doesnt mean faster.

I'd hit it. (X1800XT)

[AMDCam]

It's really the way you look at it. I know pipes isn't everything, but it's a lot. See for example:
I am a guy who goes all or nothing, pure power. So if a 429ci V8 has 700hp, and a 3.6L V6 gets 700hp with a lot of modifications, even if it's literally faster (because it's got less weight), I'll still take the 429. Half because I have the right to say "I got a big block" (or "I got 24 pipes") and the other half is because it's got a hellofalot more headroom to get more power out of it than that V6.

That was an exaggerated comparison, but realistically I'd say an X1800XT vs. 7800GTX is like a Vortec V6 (slightly modified) w/260hp vs. 289ci hi-po V8 w/271hp.

[mR Yellow]

It's really the way you look at it. I know pipes isn't everything, but it's a lot. See for example:
I am a guy who goes all or nothing, pure power. So if a 429ci V8 has 700hp, and a 3.6L V6 gets 700hp with a lot of modifications, even if it's literally faster (because it's got less weight), I'll still take the 429. Half because I have the right to say "I got a big block" (or "I got 24 pipes") and the other half is because it's got a hellofalot more headroom to get more power out of it than that V6.

That was an exaggerated comparison, but realistically I'd say an X1800XT vs. 7800GTX is like a Vortec V6 (slightly modified) w/260hp vs. 289ci hi-po V8 w/271hp.

This has been a very debated topic.
PIPES are out! Unified architecture is in and ATi has made the step in that direction.

[65tweet]

a 429ci V8
I'll still take the 429.
289ci hi-po V8 w/271hp.

OHH Ford engine talk! Don’t get me started I love my HI PO 289! :D :D I pass just about everything but the gas station. :banghead: That said I’d go for a 428 CJ with worse mileage. Agreeing with what you said if you’re going to put out the cash get what makes you happy no matter what the mileage er I mean wattage. Look at the benchies from sites you trust and decide for yourself. I don’t trust or bash either manufacturer. To get to the point if we didn’t have one the other would only put out what it felt we needed :nutkick: and just like with CPU’s we would still be using P2’s.

[AMDCam]

Yeah dude, a Ford fan, FINALLY! I'm the ONLY Ford man in my city, mostly because people around here are ignorant, but still. What frame is that 289 in? That's my dream small-block (the hi-po). I got a straight-6 200ci in my '67 stang. Not much to brag about but I really can't afford a V8 in any aspect, although if I could I'd get one in a half a heartbeat.

[zAAm]

Yeah, you Ford guys with the V8's and straight-6's. We barely have about 10 cars in the market with a V8+. (Excluding sports cars o'course) The price of fuel in America is alot cheaper than in SA so we mostly drive around in 1.6litre 4-cylinder small cars that gets 12km/litre... ;)

[AMDCam]

Yeah, I'm not proud of the massive tanks we drive around out here. Not because they're too big, but because the people driving them are usually soccer-moms, or business/family men, and both types can't drive worth a shit. But our muscle cars are one of the many things I'm proud of this country for

[thehellrazor]

The availability thing is funny !
Here i Norway not one single X1800XT has been sold, how long has it gone since release ?
But the 7800GTX 512 was in stock on release !

[65tweet]

Yeah dude, a Ford fan, FINALLY! I'm the ONLY Ford man in my city, mostly because people around here are ignorant, but still. What frame is that 289 in?
I have a '68 rustang fastback;) . I did allot of work to it and replaced most of the metal so it's not so rusty now but it's not a thing of beauty either. It can be fun to drive but at $3 a gal for the cheap gas I don't drive it much. Living on an island I don't have anyplace to go anyway. At least I can't get a ticket for over clocking my video card :D. There are several clubs in Colorado. I have a 65 coup with a 200 too. Not much in the power dept but at least it's fair on gas. I should have joined a club when it was "restored". Eight years in the northwest without a garage takes its toll :cry: .

[AMDCam]

Nice cars dude, I wish I could get my hands on a fastback, preferably '67 but if you restored your "rustang" you could make a nice Bullitt if you switched the Hi-po for a 390 (and upgrade everything to GT if it isn't). Everyone around here has '65's and '66's, so I'm really getting tired of that body around here because people use them as ugly ugly junkers. But anywhere else they're cool. And $3 a gallon? it's almost back into the $1.99 region over here. Happy that you got a good engine coupled with that beautiful body (even if it is rusted or has no paint or anything) though, helping keep classic muscle alive. Where do you live that's an island? Like Hawaii or New York?

[65tweet]

Gas is more expensive here in Alaska. It’s hard to believe it but even though oil is produced up here all the gasoline refineries are down there. I costs less in California (where they have taxes on gas taxes) than here! WTF:twitch:

[mR Yellow]

Yeah, you Ford guys with the V8's and straight-6's. We barely have about 10 cars in the market with a V8+. (Excluding sports cars o'course) The price of fuel in America is alot cheaper than in SA so we mostly drive around in 1.6litre 4-cylinder small cars that gets 12km/litre... ;)

Hey zAAm, im also from SA (PTA aswell) so i know exaclty what u mean...:banghead:

[zAAm]

Hey zAAm, im also from SA (PTA aswell) so i know exaclty what u mean...:banghead:

Yeah, just saw the petrol price is at R5.75/litre and diesel is at R6.07/litre! :eek: (You US guys can work that out atm $1 = approx. R6.50)

[mR Yellow]

Yeah, just saw the petrol price is at R5.75/litre and diesel is at R6.07/litre! :eek: (You US guys can work that out atm $1 = approx. R6.50)

Yeah, they ripping us off...BIG TIME.
BTW do u go to MPLD?

[AMDCam]

About a month ago we had to pay about $3.20 for 85 octane, and I forgot how many liters are in a gallon, but I think a little over 3, so you're paying about as much as us but a little more. Down in Colorado we're paying $2.03 for 85. I drive a Corolla as my daily driver, and that sips gas, but I still hate the fact that when I'm empty I have to pay that much. By the way, what does the R stand for (sorry, I'm ignorant with foreign currencies)?

[zAAm]

A gallon is almost 4litres. It's 3.87litres. So that'd make your gas prices quite a bit cheaper... ;) And R is for South African Rand. ZAR.

[noneed4me2]

i had a 65 coupe, w/ toploader 4 speed (had to sell), my dad had a 70 coupe no big deal there, he had a sweet 67 fastback(was totalled parked on the street:( ) now we are collaborating on a 69 fastback, redone from the ground up, with a tricked out 302, i could go on for days about all the sweet stuff this car has but waiting to finish it is the hardest. We got all the parts but ran out of money for the paint job, and now that its stripped got all these new parts taking up room at mine and his house. And we are still debating on what trans to go with. It came stock with a 3 speed manual, we wer thinking of going with a T5 manual trans as adapter kits are readily available or with a toploader 4 speed like my old 65.

[AMDCam]

Take the T5 man, that's what I would do. And a '69, god that's sweet. A '67 Bullitt remake or a '69 BOSS 429, either one could easily let me be okay with dying. Preferrably the BOSS, but both of those are some fine pieces of ass lol.

[65tweet]

I have a crappy C4 in both my cars. A manual would make things so much better. If you're going to put out the cash then a T-5 is the way to go in every respect. They have been known to cause exhaust clearance issues though so plan ahead. What was this thread about again :rolleyes:? We need a ford section :rockout:. New cars have computers right:).

[AMDCam]

I got a C4 in mine too, but I really don't need better for my 6cyl. T5's are the way to go with classic stangs. And hell yeah tweet, that'd be awesome to get a Ford section, although even with computers controlling them (lol but not our stangs) it's not really true to the site.

[65tweet]

On a positive note about a C4 there is something to say about being able to go 90 MPH in 2nd:rolleyes: . On the flip side though I’d settle for the added mileage that having a fifth gear gives you. Quicker acceleration is always nice too:D .

[AMDCam]

Hopefully you mean 3rd dude, jesus, my tranny was just set to shift at an even higher rpm (than it was stock, it shifted 1st- 35mph, 2nd- 60mph, now it shifts 1st- 40mph, 2nd-70mph), it shifts at like 70mph, and that's doing I assume 8,000rpm (yeah, it waits and waits, and even backfires lol), but I'd blow my engine doing 90 in it. 3rd barely hits 90 and it sounds like it's doing around 6,000rpm, which I assume is the beginning redline for my 6. That's the worst part about high speeds in a C4, redlining at 85mph lol. But yeah, that tranny will keep going and going, no doubt about it. It'd be heaven to have 2 more cruising gears though, even for a 6cyl.

[ibiggun]

This has been a very debated topic.
PIPES are out! Unified architecture is in and ATi has made the step in that direction.

That was their gamble. The new architecture could have been great, but judging by the way they've had to stick a whacking great 2-slot cooler on it and ramp up the clock speed to marginally beat Nvidia, I'd call it a failure. It seems obvious that the 7800 series would still win if similarly souped-up.

[zOaib]

That was their gamble. The new architecture could have been great, but judging by the way they've had to stick a whacking great 2-slot cooler on it and ramp up the clock speed to marginally beat Nvidia, I'd call it a failure. It seems obvious that the 7800 series would still win if similarly souped-up.

its well known by data , showing Nvidia loosing all muscle when ti comes to AA and AF turned up , Ati can handle complex graphics better than Nvidia , however this can change in the future but for now Ati cards can handle deeper resolutions and texture filtering in real high levels , ofcourse this is my opinion form experience and the data i have compared form many different tests ! :nutkick:

[AMDCam]

I agree with ibiggun. That's why I really don't appreciate ATI's X1800's. They use all of the last-gens stuff, except new architecture. I mean yeah, architecture is important (ATI shows that) but still, I appreciate Nvidia's "mainstream" power. I mean 4x AA 4x AF is all most people are gonna do, and it's almost unnoticable any higher. Plus, who's gonna use a 2###x1### resolution on games? I'd say an average gamer that likes graphics uses 1280x1024, and Nvidia can handle that easily. So even if ATI can handle the extra graphics, who's gonna notice it, let alone use it?

[zOaib]

I agree with ibiggun. That's why I really don't appreciate ATI's X1800's. They use all of the last-gens stuff, except new architecture. I mean yeah, architecture is important (ATI shows that) but still, I appreciate Nvidia's "mainstream" power. I mean 4x AA 4x AF is all most people are gonna do, and it's almost unnoticable any higher. Plus, who's gonna use a 2###x1### resolution on games? I'd say an average gamer that likes graphics uses 1280x1024, and Nvidia can handle that easily. So even if ATI can handle the extra graphics, who's gonna notice it, let alone use it?


when nintendo came out , and the sega genesis came out i was like dang nothing can beat these ever , this is the pinnacle of graphics , the holy abode ................. same with what u r saying yes for now 4x AA and 4XAF is all people are using , believe me the games are goign to be getting more demanding in resolution and overall texture filtering ................. your point is sound but u have to realise , the path Ati has taken by producing gpu that can deal hardcore beating , Nvidia is not going to last long they keep focusing mainstream , because Ati can handle mainstream and a little more than that ............... plus i have seen the graphics of a 7800 gtx VS 1800xt , u can notice the quality difference ............... i have used nvidias up until the fx 5700 , my fav was the ti4800 (?) ............... but the day i tried the ati radeon x800 pro ............... i never went back ! ;)

[AMDCam]

Okay, I get your point, well said. I think we just started trying the other companies at different times. I tried ATI with the 9800, although Nvidia was dominating that class at the time. So I went Nvidia and saw how streamline, feature-full, and how much quality my 6800GT could handle, even though I knew ATI was leading THAT class at the time, but I didn't care because my 9800 sucked (in class) so at first I assumed ATI wasn't that great all-around. But my 6800GT exceeded my expectations and that's the reason I'm sticking with it. I'll probably go back to ATI when the R580 is released, but you gotta admit ATI has been making some horrible mistakes recently. I used to be a hardcore ATI man even before my 9800 Pro (and stood by even stronger when I got it), but watching what ATI was doing when I decided to get my 6800, I pretty quickly changed my team to Nvidia. They really just take turns through the years, I mean the Geforce MX4## series made me despise Nvidia for about 2 years (my old laptop had one in it), but before that I had an old TNT2 Riva that-to this day-is still my favorite card (for the time) ever. The 8-pipeline class Nvidia took the lead in, the 16 pipe class ATI took the lead in, and now altogether Nvidia is ahead (in my opinion) because it told us it would do something and did, unlike ATI has been doing.

[zOaib]

Okay, I get your point, well said. I think we just started trying the other companies at different times. I tried ATI with the 9800, although Nvidia was dominating that class at the time. So I went Nvidia and saw how streamline, feature-full, and how much quality my 6800GT could handle, even though I knew ATI was leading THAT class at the time, but I didn't care because my 9800 sucked (in class) so at first I assumed ATI wasn't that great all-around. But my 6800GT exceeded my expectations and that's the reason I'm sticking with it. I'll probably go back to ATI when the R580 is released, but you gotta admit ATI has been making some horrible mistakes recently. I used to be a hardcore ATI man even before my 9800 Pro (and stood by even stronger when I got it), but watching what ATI was doing when I decided to get my 6800, I pretty quickly changed my team to Nvidia.


oh yeah i agree definately , on that part , Ati needs to get there act together specially when it comes to their release dates , cause that could be the downfall of the company :)

[yogurt_21]

Yeah dude, a Ford fan, FINALLY! I'm the ONLY Ford man in my city, mostly because people around here are ignorant, but still. What frame is that 289 in? That's my dream small-block (the hi-po). I got a straight-6 200ci in my '67 stang. Not much to brag about but I really can't afford a V8 in any aspect, although if I could I'd get one in a half a heartbeat.
73' Ford Ranchero 500 400ci holley 600 double pumper, edelbrock aluminum intake, aluminum heads, k&n air intake. 600hp!! and if I keep my foot out of it I've been able to get 15mpg pretty sweet considering with original everything the 2 barrel motocraft only got 8mpg. lol

[AMDCam]

wow man. this is an old thread but either way, that's cool. Don't like those huge bodies but you got quite the beast under the hood, and the body just adds to intimidation on that. was the 400ci stock that year? I never even heard of a 400 Ford block (but I know next to nothing about the 70's/80's era cars). What's a double pumper, like a 2 or 4-barrel I assume?

[PVTCaboose1337]

First:

I like ATI, but do not find all of the points they made strong. Some in fact seemed dead wrong.

Second:

I was not impressed with how the author presented these slides. This seems like slandering NVIDIA senseless.

[Steevo]

Err.

12K on a FX57 w/ 2 7800GTX's in SLI with base settings. 2X256=512

10K on a 4000+ and 1800XT stand alone with base settings. 1X512=512

Still have better image quality.
And I just converted a 17Mb video of my son to a 7Mb so I could email it.

Did I mention that it is quiet?