NVIDIA Asks Card Makers to Reduce Manufacturing Costs of 8800 GT Cards

malware · Dec 28, 2007

NVIDIA recently contacted its graphics card partners asking them to reduce the number PCB board layers used in GeForce 8800 GT-based graphics cards from ten to six in order to reduce manufacturing costs and so lower the card's ASP (average selling price) in the market. The redesign would allow the NVIDIA cards to compete in terms of pricing with AMD's Radeon HD 3800 series products. Although the Radeon HD 3800 series was launched three weeks later than the GeForce 8800 GT, Radeon 3800 demand has started to pick up, bringing the market shares of NVIDIA and AMD from 90% and 10%, originally, to 70% and 30%. If the PCB layers are reduced from ten to six, graphics card makers are expected to save more than US$10 for each card, which would allow the NVIDIA products to go into price competition with those of AMD. Despite the cost benefits, some graphics card makers are unhappy with NVIDIA's suggestion, pointing out that the chip maker is in effect asking them to do the job of improving the price/performance ratio of its products, while preserving its own profit margins. NVIDIA responded in saying that the redesign is only a suggestion which it believes is the best solution to meet the current market conditions. Card makers will not be forced to implement the change, the company stressed.

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broke · Dec 28, 2007

hmmm smart move, but what do PCB layers do anyways?

btarunr · Dec 28, 2007

How much will that reduction be anyway? The cheapest 8800 GT 512MB in my location is ~$230, EVGA brand, reference speeds. I'm not sure that would go down anything below $210.

FreedomEclipse · Dec 28, 2007

does this mean that they will be using cheaper parts? (capacitors, resistors etc) it would totally suck if they also did that. graphic cards aswell as many other hi-performance products should be made with the best resources available.

on a side note....

Today i am ditching my ATi X1800XT 512mb for a monster of a 8800GTS G92 512Mb!!!! :nutkick:

my first ever NON ATi card. i am proud

Mussels · Dec 28, 2007

more layers allow more complex designs, and more power. I assume its because the GT uses more complex PCB designs (such as the same as teh GTS), but since the GT doesnt need as complex power (no VRM's for example) they can drop it down to reduce costs.

$10 saving per card at manuf end, could equal upto $50 (USD) off at consumer end.

btarunr · Dec 28, 2007

I'm totally opposed to hardware manufacturers cutting-down prices at the cost of quality. I don't want something that fails in a couple of years.

Muzz: Really? would we see a $50 cut??

OnBoard · Dec 28, 2007

I'd be fine with one (1) layer, if it would mean that there where plenty of 8800GT:s to shop from

Most cards are still out of stock here and no estimations on when they are coming. I'm starting to get annoyed :\ Cheapest available is 249€/365$ and I'm not paying that, waiting for Club3D or Palit Sonic cards to appear ~220€/323$. Newegg seems to have stock for 269$, so at least it is slowly closing in on the 250$ MSRP.

Oh and doesn't less layers make the card run a bit hotter? Maybe less of an overclocker as well. Wasn't there an issue with 4 layer mobos compared to 6 layer ones just in news. Something about phenom compability.

Mussels · Dec 28, 2007

btarunr said:
I'm totally opposed to hardware manufacturers cutting-down prices at the cost of quality. I don't want something that fails in a couple of years.

Muzz: Really? would we see a $50 cut??

COULD, not would. If they manage to simplify the board a lot (remember, they are using an older, more complex board than needed. think of it as wasted space) the prices would drop.

$10 at manufacturer means its cheaper to bulk order, suppliers have it cheaper meaning stores get it a bit cheaper, which means the consumer gets it cheaper.

how much, who knows - but if NV didnt think it would make the card more competitive, why would they bother?

P.S they arent skimping on teh cooler here, so please stop posting about how the cards are going to fail quicker. there is no evidence of that.

tkpenalty · Dec 28, 2007

btarunr said:
How much will that reduction be anyway? The cheapest 8800 GT 512MB in my location is ~$230, EVGA brand, reference speeds. I'm not sure that would go down anything below $210.

Reduction in layers = reduction in quality, cards are easier to damage, cards can take less voltage. Not a smart move at all in my opinion as 8800GTs are very good in terms of bang for buck. However if Nvidia are doing this to compete with the HD3870, we might see them in court very soon. They should have a good think about it, if the 8800GT has less layers, we'll probably see a VERY high faliure rate...

Mussels · Dec 28, 2007

tkpenalty said:
Reduction in layers = reduction in quality, cards are easier to damage, cards can take less voltage. Not a smart move at all in my opinion as 8800GTs are very good in terms of bang for buck. However if Nvidia are doing this to compete with the HD3870, we might see them in court very soon. They should have a good think about it, if the 8800GT has less layers, we'll probably see a VERY high faliure rate...

The thing is, the 8800GT uses the same PCB as the GTS. the GTS is a little longer, and has more power circuitry - how much of that goes unused on the GT?

If they're only removing wasted space, how it is going to affect quality?

(i AM saying if. I/we dont know for sure)

btarunr · Dec 28, 2007

Guess it's going to be something like the Radeon HD2600XT that comes in two reference PCB's the longer one mostly used by the viriants featuring DDR4, the shorter ones using D3.

How could this PCB shift affect OC'ing anyway?

newtekie1 · Dec 28, 2007

I think it is a smart move by nVidia. The 8800GT just isn't priced competitively. They are only about $60 less than the GTS, which IMO isn't low enough to be considered.

tkpenalty said:
Reduction in layers = reduction in quality, cards are easier to damage, cards can take less voltage. Not a smart move at all in my opinion as 8800GTs are very good in terms of bang for buck. However if Nvidia are doing this to compete with the HD3870, we might see them in court very soon. They should have a good think about it, if the 8800GT has less layers, we'll probably see a VERY high faliure rate...

No it doesn't equal reduced quality. If they layers are going unused then taking them out isn't affecting anything. I don't know where you are getting that they are easier to damage, it isn't like taking layers out makes the PCB thinner, it doesn't work that way, so they won't be any easier to damage. Yes, they cards won't be able to take as much voltage, but how many people does that really affect? The less than 1% of people that volt-mod their cards? I don't really think that percentage is worth having a product on the market that can't compete with the majority of consumers.

You argument is the equivelant of say the HD3850 is lower quality than the HD3870. It just doesn't work. Yes, the HD3850 are lower end cards, but the production quality is the same.

X-TeNDeR · Dec 28, 2007

btarunr: the radeon 2600XT with DDR4 is longer to accommodate the more complex circuitry. afaik, it has the same pcb layers, and only differs in length. this is different from what nvidia is trying to do, and thats putting the toll on its partners. asking the partners to cut the pcb and save some $$ for themselves, while nvidia sell the chips for the same price AND trying to achieve better price-performance ratio is egoistic and nasty imo. you want to price your card more competitively? sell your chips for less! and don't ask your partners to create lower-grade parts :mad:

btarunr · Dec 28, 2007

Read the post from Newtekie. Lesser PCB layers doesn't ness' mean inferior components. The whole thing is just about shedding unused PCB layer that won't affect performance or quality....just that it could affect a minority of consumers who are into v-modding. This is an easier method of cutting costs to make the product inviting for buyers, something that'd benefit both board vendors and NVidia as well, than NV making cheap GPUs at the compromise of quality...for NV to do that either they have to shrink their fab process or lease contract to more fab-partners. NV is a fabless semiconductor company.

trog100 · Dec 28, 2007

the only reason the 8800gt was prematurely rushed into existence (at the price it was) was to torpedo the 3800 ati launch..

ati have nvidia worried.. they dont like having to lower their rip-off prices in essence.. so they are trying to claw some profit back..

ati are leading nvidia are reacting..

trog

btarunr · Dec 28, 2007

Yep. I buy your word entirely, Trog.

I was amazed at so many people taking a 3850 this Christmas it almost nullified 8800GT presence. 8800GT was out of stock in many places...so no point either. :laugh:

Mussels · Dec 28, 2007

trog100 said:
the only reason the 8800gt was prematurely rushed into existence (at the price it was) was to torpedo the 3800 ati launch..

ati have nvidia worried.. they dont like having to lower their rip-off prices in essence.. so they are trying to claw some profit back..

ati are leading nvidia are reacting..

trog

oh please. ATI arent leading in anything but price at the moment. the 8800GT isnt premature at all, and apart from the fact it runs hot on the stock cooler they are damned awesome cards, at great prices. (i have seen them around $350 here in aus already, compared to the $500 for the original 8800GTS)

newtekie1 · Dec 28, 2007

They aren't even really leading in price. i can get a brand new 8800GT 512MB from a reputable e-tailer for $250, $200 for the 256MB, the cheapest HD3870 I can find is $240. $10 isn't really that big of a lead, especially when it performs slightly worse.

Mussels · Dec 28, 2007

true, but try finding something competitive below the 8800GT... 8600 vs 2600xt anyone? bleh.

newtekie1 · Dec 28, 2007

Meh, the mid-range and low end cards in both camps are complete ass anyways.

WhiteLotus · Dec 28, 2007

malware said:
bringing the market shares of NVIDIA and AMD from 90% and 10%, originally, to 70% and 30%.

really? get it ATI.

and any reduction in cost is going to be good for the consumer unless they use cheaper crappier parts.

1c3d0g · Dec 28, 2007

No, NVIDIA, No! :cry:

Their engineers must have a lot of confidence that lowering the amount of layers on the PCB will not introduce further cross-talk interference...I for one would NOT want one of these handicapped 8800GT's, that's for damn sure! :mad:

jydie · Dec 28, 2007

Well, it is good to read possitive news about ATI/AMD.

Those people that shot down ATI for giving up on the high end card and instead focusing on the more "affordable" price range might finally see the light. This also points out how competition is good for BOTH Nvidia and ATI fans.

Did ATI seriously only have a 10% market share before the 3800 series was released? I had no idea things were THAT bad for them. :eek:

These new cards really helped them out a lot.

allen337 · Dec 28, 2007

The pcb board layers is the guts of the card, the more layers the better transfer of voltages. Basically Its the same with motherboards. You see the pcchips boards with a low number of pcb layers and asus boards with alot more pcb layers. I ran into this a few years back buying a ecs motherboard at a mom and pop store. He told me the ecs had like 4 pcb layers and the asus,gigabyte and msi had like 8 layers. I bought the ecs because its all he had in stock. Lasted 8 months and died. ALLEN

newtekie1 · Dec 28, 2007

Again, the number of PCB layers doesn't matter if they are only removing layers that are unused, which is the case here. The 8800GTS(G92) needs 10 layers because of the extra components on the board and the extra power needed for the core. The 8800GT doesn't need that many layers, so basically the the manufactures are just wasting money by including them. They aren't aiding the current 8800GT at all.

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NVIDIA Asks Card Makers to Reduce Manufacturing Costs of 8800 GT Cards

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