Giving WCG stars based on math poll

garyinhere · Nov 20, 2010

This thread is open for voting ONLY until 11/26. No posts/comments at all. Not for any reason! Any post/comment will result in deletion and an infraction. If you do not understand what this means, please send me a PM for clarification. Thank you!

This thread is to vote and voice opinions on implementing the star reward system based on math.

PvtCaboose1337 will give the details on how we arrived at these new numbers. I asked for his help because he is not biased on the issue, and I don't want Anyone to think that I am doing this for anyone but the team.

We did this to make a fair reward system. Please vote on what you think is fair, and comment on why you think it should be what you voted for.

POLL WILL CLOSE FRIDAY NOV 26th AT 10PM EASTERN AND THREAD WILL BE LOCKED

PVTCaboose1337 · Nov 20, 2010

Gary asked for my help working out reasonable numbers that were not pulled from one's anus. I can rationally prove these numbers below. Take a look at the graph and read on.

So what exactly are you looking at?

First off, I compiled the top 85 PPD earners and got the average PPD. It came out to be about 3100, so I rounded to 3000. Next I calculated the standard deviation. This number came out to be 4200, so I added the two (raw) numbers together, and got around 7400. Rounding to a more friendly 7500, I made this the max PPD to get 5 stars. I then got the minimum PPD, and calculated a power function. The function came out to be as shown on the graph. After plugging in more numbers to get the 2, 3, and 4 star numbers, we came to our final numbers. They are:

1: 500
2: 1500
3: 3000
4: 5000
5: 7500

These numbers are backed up by math. If we take a small look at Ion's graph, we will see it does not follow any trend at all. My graph follows a tailored polynomial function and I think it is an accurate depiction of what the new numbers should be.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

Guys,

Things were just made a little interesting. If you make it too easy based on average nobody will ever stride for more output. Ever since the badges went down now all of the sudden it's become a big isssue, people are harrasing other people because they can't match their output, etc. So to end this, I will remove the stars. I just thought it was a good way to make things competitive and fun but some of you just will never be happy. So, before when nobody complained we had no stars, that's how it'll be again. This way we can just continue to crunch on how we were before, unlike now where everybody tends to dislike everything. Sorry fellas, but I just want the better for the team, right now it's not looking how I wanted it to look like.

theonedub · Nov 20, 2010

Chicken Patty said:
Guys,

Things were just made a little interesting. If you make it too easy based on average nobody will ever stride for more output. Ever since the badges went down now all of the sudden it's become a big isssue, people are harrasing other people because they can't match their output, etc. So to end this, I will remove the stars. I just thought it was a good way to make things competitive and fun but some of you just will never be happy. So, before when nobody complained we had no stars, that's how it'll be again. This way we can just continue to crunch on how we were before, unlike now where everybody tends to dislike everything. Sorry fellas, but I just want the better for the team, right now it's not looking how I wanted it to look like.

Removing them would be the poorest decision of all. The numbers you used for the levels were poor to begin with and had no bearing other than they looked fine to you and a couple other people. These numbers have mathematical merit and still have numbers that are a challenge to meet- 3k, 5k and 7.5k is no walk in the park. Removing them would be doing the members here a disservice and, in my opinion, would be demonstrating poor leadership.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
Removing them would be the poorest decision of all. The numbers you used for the levels were poor to begin with and had no bearing other than they looked fine to you and a couple other people. These numbers have mathematical merit and still have numbers that are a challenge to meet- 3k, 5k and 7.5k is no walk in the park. Removing them would be doing the members here a disservice and, in my opinion, would be demonstrating poor leadership.

Was it poor leadership before? Nobody complained before, everybody was happy and we were crunching along happily. Why is this an issue now, that's what I fail to understand.

theonedub · Nov 20, 2010

Before, the system was fine. It crashed, the requirements were changed, and we were given an opportunity to improve it. Obviously people aren't happy with the changes that were made, which I don't think is a surprise. No one really got a chance to convey their opinion.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
Before, the system was fine. It crashed, the requirements were changed, and we were given an opportunity to improve it. Obviously people aren't happy with the changes that were made, which I don't think is a surprise. No one really got a chance to convey their opinion.

The thing that I notice is that what might be an improvement to 500 people, might not be an improvement to 100. Therefore regardless of what we do, not EVERYBODY will be happy. So I think the best thing to do is to keep it to what it was before when at least NOBODY complained about the system. As much as I understand that the above numbers have a mathematical merit, they will not keep every one happy, and nothing will. The badges will return to normal, when everybody was just happy to be able to crunch.

theonedub · Nov 20, 2010

How many people have voted they like the system as it is now? Zero.

Even when we were rolling the 100k and 1 result per day OG system we wanted a new badge with designations like the F@H badges. We actually wanted that from the get go (look at the original thread about the idea of badges).

So far I have only seen 2 people happy with the system as it is the creator (you), and the co-captain, Ion.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
How many people have voted they like the system as it is now? Zero.

Even when we were rolling the 100k and 1 result per day OG system we wanted a new badge with designations like the F@H badges. We actually wanted that from the get go (look at the original thread about the idea of badges).

So far I have only seen 2 people happy with the system as it is the creator (you), and the co-captain, Ion.

That's not exactly true. It's true it was suggested by us, but we all know why this started apart from the few that didn't like the numbers to begin with.

Apparently you guys don't see the effort put into this? I want the best for the team, instead of PM'ing me some ideas all that was done was bashing the stars system and doubt how "things are ran". First off I think most people if not everybody took the wrong approach on how to discuss these things including you. Now, having said that I ONLY WANT THE BEST FOR THE TEAM!

WHAT WILL EVERYBODY BE HAPPY WITH, LET'S JUST SETTLE THIS ONCE AND FOR ALL, PLEASE!!!!!!!!!! I DON'T HOLD GRUDGE AGAINST NO ONE NOR AM I PISSED. I JUST THINK THIS WAS MADE MUCH OF A BIGGER DEAL THAN IT WAS.

Now, please, tell me, what will keep everyone happy? It really fucking stinks to wake up every morning, go to work, check TPU while all day at work, answer stuff on FB, PM's, and keep an eye on all threads to see you guys bashing away. I barely have time for myself and all the hard work I put into this goes to shit.

theonedub · Nov 20, 2010

Here's an idea, rather than posting in every WCG thread that this proposed system is already denied and canned lets see what comes of the thread and what other team members think?

I mean its the middle of the night/early morning and you are already kicking this idea to the curb less than 6hrs after it was created. That wasn't very sensible.

Solaris17 · Nov 20, 2010

I like the system how it is. You get a badge based on if you give work. and a star per baseline. Its not a difficult concept. The baselines arent a figment of your imagination they are real. It doesnt matter if they were based off of mathematics they are still standards. Looking at IONs numbers I can see what he did. In fact Its so transparent I'm finding it hard that people dont under stand.

500 to get your foot in the door
1000 first important milestone.
2000 double original milestone.
4000 double second milestone.
12,000 Amazing achievement.

anything over that and youve been part of the team so long you stray away from stupid arguments like this.

Now i understand people find things wrong with this system. but Lets play devils advocate.

based on this mathematics based approch. what happens in summer? when people drop for weeks at a time due to heat? the avrages will change. and the system will need to be changed to accomidate the slower progression because people will get mad that their shit dissapeared or that they arent getting the baslines fast enough because their "hard" in their situation. I personally would like to see a solid system were numbers are numbers and dont need to be changed when the environmental variables and dedication/ point output change. Thats a system you would need to modify multiple times a year. this one is never changing.

garyinhere · Nov 20, 2010

It was to my understanding that the stars were not correct when they were implemented in the first place and it took this long to fix it. That is why nothing was said because the fix was in the works. Nobody was harassed or attacked, valid points were made about how one person is obtaining points and flaunting it in other's faces... several members have told him to chill out

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

onedub & sol

see, onedub will be happy with the new system, sol will not. See? As onedub recommended, let's give it a few days to see what the votes say.

theonedub · Nov 20, 2010

I would think that the system as it stands now would be more susceptible to environmental changes more than the proposed system.

garyinhere · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
I would think that the system as it stands now would be more susceptible to environmental changes more than the proposed system.

I agree... the proposed system will even need to be adjusted from time to time as technology improves. It isn't flawless but it is fair!

Solaris17 · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
I would think that the system as it stands now would be more susceptible to environmental changes more than the proposed system.

possibly. However a stationary baseline can also boost potential and confidence. as well as excitment when they are close to the goal. a non moving goal will and can give people the belife that they are reaching something. Which can drive people to push harder or longer. However with the proposed system needing to be adjusted frequently as I see it. can have the opposite effect. "meh my 580 died. Ill just buy a new car instead. I can just make up the points later when the standards are dropped for summer."

garyinhere said:
I agree... the proposed system will even need to be adjusted from time to time as technology improves. It isn't flawless but it is fair!

I agree it is very fair. Its just the level of time and maintenence given to this points system is getting tiring. Not to mention changing it frequently will become bothersome. Time we should be spending on crunching.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

When do you guys think it would be a good deadline to choose which system stays? two days, three days, etc?

I won't vote for one simple reason. I'm in it for the research. Sure milestones and the competition is fun, but whether I have ten stars or none, I'm happy to be a part of this. Whether the old or proposed system stays, it won't change me. So I'll leave it up to you guys to decide, not me. This way there's not possibility that it can be "poor leadership" or anything along those lines. I'm letting you guys decide, you got a better idea shoot me a PM.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
Here's an idea, rather than posting in every WCG thread that this proposed system is already denied and canned lets see what comes of the thread and what other team members think?

I mean its the middle of the night/early morning and you are already kicking this idea to the curb less than 6hrs after it was created. That wasn't very sensible.

Solaris17 said:
possibly. However a stationary baseline can also boost potential and confidence. as well as excitment when they are close to the goal. a non moving goal will and can give people the belife that they are reaching something. Which can drive people to push harder or longer. However with the proposed system needing to be adjusted frequently as I see it. can have the opposite effect. "meh my 580 died. Ill just buy a new car instead. I can just make up the points later when the standards are dropped for summer."

I get what you are saying. However, I don't think it should be adjusted in the summer. I do understand mostly everybody drops production, but my point of view is that if you want to keep your stars, you gotta keep going at them hard. Adjusting either system whether the proposed or the current one would not keep motivation up, my two cents at least. As you said, when the standards are lowered, then people can make it up.

garyinhere · Nov 20, 2010

I think by Friday everyone who cycles through the forums will have a chance to see the poll and vote... this was by no means an insult to you, but the team should have a voice. Ion doesn't speak for all of us.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

garyinhere said:
I think by Friday everyone who cycles through the forums will have a chance to see the poll and vote... this was by no means an insult to you, but the team should have a voice. Ion doesn't speak for all of us.

Gary, in the badges thread, some agreed to the new system other than ION. Not fair? Well, I guess that's why we are here. I appreciate the time you or anyone who contributed to the proposed system took, let's just leave it up to votes then.

If you can, add the deadline date to the first post. That way people would know too and not come as surprise when decision is made. Thanks.

Solaris17 · Nov 20, 2010

garyinhere said:
I think by Friday everyone who cycles through the forums will have a chance to see the poll and vote... this was by no means an insult to you, but the team should have a voice. Ion doesn't speak for all of us.

Agreed no disrespect to anyone. but im sure We are all man enough to dissagree and talk about something rather then flame and argue. We should leave the poll open and see what the community decides. Taking all possible outcomes into consideration before the final adjustments are made. This way we can all play fair trial and agree that it was talked about discussed and decided upon by majority so we can all stop bitching at some point in the near future. And with that good night gentlemen 5:00AM here just got out of work and another full day tomorrow.

garyinhere · Nov 20, 2010

So know we have our good Captains blessing lets keep the posts on topic please! There should be no attacks made on Anyone!

theonedub · Nov 20, 2010

Under PVTs system the top 9 members (out of about 75 returning work) would have the full 5. I think thats pretty good.

Chicken Patty · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
Under PVTs system the top 9 members (out of about 75 returning work) would have the full 5. I think thats pretty good.

It does sound good to me. I just like a system where it would impose more of a challenge. But that's why I'm letting the public decide. Guess we should have made a poll from the get go.

hat · Nov 20, 2010

theonedub said:
Removing them would be the poorest decision of all. The numbers you used for the levels were poor to begin with and had no bearing other than they looked fine to you and a couple other people. These numbers have mathematical merit and still have numbers that are a challenge to meet- 3k, 5k and 7.5k is no walk in the park. Removing them would be doing the members here a disservice and, in my opinion, would be demonstrating poor leadership.

I understand CP's frustration. As the team captain, he has to deal with all the bickering and arguing and try to please everyone. The system is fine as it is now, not everything has to mathematically sound.

theonedub said:
Before, the system was fine. It crashed, the requirements were changed, and we were given an opportunity to improve it. Obviously people aren't happy with the changes that were made, which I don't think is a surprise. No one really got a chance to convey their opinion.

As I recall, there was enough bickering about the system the first time around. Today, someone got the idea to start round 2. We don't need all this arguing.

theonedub said:
How many people have voted they like the system as it is now? Zero.

Even when we were rolling the 100k and 1 result per day OG system we wanted a new badge with designations like the F@H badges. We actually wanted that from the get go (look at the original thread about the idea of badges).

So far I have only seen 2 people happy with the system as it is the creator (you), and the co-captain, Ion.

I originally wasn't going to vote in the poll because I thought this resurgence of badge-bickering was ridiculous, but I decided to throw my two cents in, now that it seems the poll is getting attention, to re-affirm my position of "everybody shut the hell up and leave it alone".

:shadedshu

Why are we getting so worked up over some damned stars? Just leave it the way it is, and forget about it. Lock the thread and cast the key into the cracks of Mount Doom.

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Giving WCG stars based on math poll

Which star system should be used?

Do you think the old way is fair.

Would you like to see it change.

garyinhere

PVTCaboose1337

Graphical Hacker

Chicken Patty

theonedub

habe fidem

Chicken Patty

theonedub

habe fidem

Chicken Patty

theonedub

habe fidem

Chicken Patty

theonedub

habe fidem

Solaris17

Super Dainty Moderator

garyinhere

Chicken Patty

theonedub

habe fidem

garyinhere

Solaris17

Super Dainty Moderator

Chicken Patty

Chicken Patty

garyinhere

Chicken Patty

Solaris17

Super Dainty Moderator

garyinhere

theonedub

habe fidem

Chicken Patty

hat

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