Choosing a videocard

I'm more an ATI fan than a Nvidia fan but I'd definetly go with the Geforce 6600GT! That will be the best card outa those 3!

ADV4NCED said:

I'm more an ATI fan than a Nvidia fan but I'd definetly go with the Geforce 6600GT! That will be the best card outa those 3!

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My thoughts exactly

The 6600GT is your best option.

BLASPHEMY! you ATI Tratiors! LOL.

6600GT really? We be talkin bout the AGP version right? Say speaking of which, I don't get what's up, PCI-E comes out, and ATi seems to jumps the AGP ship? Where is my X700 AGP?

-Brian

6600GT would seem logical, however, I have witnessed that the 128-bit is NOT enough, perhaps for now it is, but not in the future. Even now, my 9500NP@9700 preforms as good as my brothers OC'd 6600GT XFX in HL2
An 9800PRO wil outpreform the 6600GT's in the future. And also, with a newer card comes a newer PSU!!! I tried an 6600GT on an 320W PSU, and will, NOT GOOD, even with lots disconnected!

nvidia will have to respond soon to the XT850, so the 6800GT's will drop, and those you can easly set to and ultra extreme with only a biosflash.....
I believe there are cheap ASUS 6800GT's with 128MB!

Else X800XL all the way, a much cheaper solution then the 6800GT, and preforms as good as it, with 16 pipes


And advanced, try flashing your 9800SE?
4250 3D03 points is way to low

Sorry dude, you're wrong. A 6600GT will eat a 9800PRO for breakfast! Bottom line, 6600GT is much newer than the 9800pro and has much newer technology making the card better.

I cannot flash my 9800SE, it has broken pipes besides 4300 is actually is pretty ok score for a 9800SE.

Nergal said:

6600GT would seem logical, however, I have witnessed that the 128-bit is NOT enough, perhaps for now it is, but not in the future. Even now, my 9500NP@9700 preforms as good as my brothers OC'd 6600GT XFX in HL2
An 9800PRO wil outpreform the 6600GT's in the future. And also, with a newer card comes a newer PSU!!! I tried an 6600GT on an 320W PSU, and will, NOT GOOD, even with lots disconnected!

nvidia will have to respond soon to the XT850, so the 6800GT's will drop, and those you can easly set to and ultra extreme with only a biosflash.....
I believe there are cheap ASUS 6800GT's with 128MB!

Else X800XL all the way, a much cheaper solution then the 6800GT, and preforms as good as it, with 16 pipes


And advanced, try flashing your 9800SE?
4250 3D03 points is way to low

Click to expand...

Your statement is only true if you apply it to video cards using the same core but different memory bandwidths, like comparing a 9800Pro 128bits to a 256bits version, but if you compare different cores, using 128bits doesn't mean that it will have lower performance when compared to an older core running at 256bits.
Take the X700 and the 6600 for example, both cards run at 128bits, but with cores built on more recent technology, both have much better performance than their 256bits predecesors (the Radeon 9800Pro and the FX 5950), you can even expect the performance gap between both generations to increase as newer optimizations are added to the drivers, and games are programmed especifically to take advantage of new features found only on the new cores (like DX9b and 9c support for example).
Haven't you noticed that Ati's newest drivers only have optimizations for their newer cards (X700 and X8xx series), as a matter of fact, my performance has decreased by a very small percentage when going from the Cat 4.12 to the 5.2 drivers, and the same holds true for nVidia cards.
About the X800XL, it is a better option, but I think there's no AGP version, and it sells for more than €200 at the present moment.

The X800XL is a good card, but yeah I have not been able to find an AGP version. Same with the X700. It seems that us AGP users are gonna have to cough up more dough for a X800pro or something. So the 6600GT really does beat a 9800pro? Most comparisions I've seen for it seem to be against the 9600XT, and it doesn't seem to pull enough ahead of the 9600XT to beat a 9800pro....

-Brian

absolutefunk said:

The X800XL is a good card, but yeah I have not been able to find an AGP version. Same with the X700. It seems that us AGP users are gonna have to cough up more dough for a X800pro or something. So the 6600GT really does beat a 9800pro? Most comparisions I've seen for it seem to be against the 9600XT, and it doesn't seem to pull enough ahead of the 9600XT to beat a 9800pro....

-Brian

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I don't know were did you get those comparisons, but in all reviews of the 6600GT I've seen, it easily surpasses the 9800 series performance by quite a respectable margin (up to 80% higher scores depending on the game and the resolution used) check this articles for example:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041119/geforce-6600gt-agp-08.html

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2277&p=3

Based on those benchmarks it's easy to guess that a 6600GT would perform at the very least twice as fast as a 9600XT, so I don't know were did you read that the 6600GT can barely outperform the 9600...
There are versions of the X700 AGP for sale if you look hard enough, and its performance is a little bit lower than the performance of the 6600GT, the X800XL is a different story, but the cheaper one I found was selling for $369 + taxes, and, as you point out you can only use it on PCIe, so, as you mentioned the only Ati AGP cards that would be worthy of upgrading to are the X700 or the X800Pro VIVO with unlocked pipelines, as the normal X800 is way too expensive.

15th Warlock said:

I don't know were did you get those comparisons, but in all reviews of the 6600GT I've seen, it easily surpasses the 9800 series performance by quite a respectable margin (up to 80% higher scores depending on the game and the resolution used) check this articles for example:

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/graphic/20041119/geforce-6600gt-agp-08.html

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2277&p=3

Based on those benchmarks it's easy to guess that a 6600GT would perform at the very least twice as fast as a 9600XT, so I don't know were did you read that the 6600GT can barely outperform the 9600...
There are versions of the X700 AGP for sale if you look hard enough, and its performance is a little bit lower than the performance of the 6600GT, the X800XL is a different story, but the cheaper one I found was selling for $369 + taxes, and, as you point out you can only use it on PCIe, so, as you mentioned the only Ati AGP cards that would be worthy of upgrading to are the X700 or the X800Pro VIVO with unlocked pipelines, as the normal X800 is way too expensive.

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Woah, don't know what I was smoking the other night when I checked out the 6600GT. Looks like a rockin card! A got a couple questions though. Is the RAMDAC quality of nVidia cards still below that of ATi? I know at least back in the 8500 era that the ATi cards had better 2D quality than nVidia. This is important for me as I have a 22" CRT and I sometimes run it at high res. Also, where can one check out the X700 AGP? I never knew one even existed! Thanx!

-Brian

There is NO X700 AGP. Sorry.

absolutefunk said:

Woah, don't know what I was smoking the other night when I checked out the 6600GT. Looks like a rockin card! A got a couple questions though. Is the RAMDAC quality of nVidia cards still below that of ATi? I know at least back in the 8500 era that the ATi cards had better 2D quality than nVidia. This is important for me as I have a 22" CRT and I sometimes run it at high res. Also, where can one check out the X700 AGP? I never knew one even existed! Thanx!

-Brian

Click to expand...

Brian, I cannot tell you if the RAMDAC quality of the nVidia cards is still bellow that of the Ati cards, as the last time I had an nVidia card was like 2 years ago (a GeForce 256 SDR)
I remember when I switched from that card to a 9200SE, the cheapest Ati card available, I know, but it was all I could afford at that time, anyway, I remember being amazed by the difference in 2D quality, but right now, I guess that nVidia's 2D quality isn't an issue anymore, you could ask an owner of a more recent nVidia card though.
About AGP versions of the X700, I'm really sorry, I found some cards listed on pricewatch, which is supposed to have different links to AGP and PCIe cards, but after clicking on what appeared to be the link to the AGP version of the cards, I found all of them were in fact PCIe cards! I'm really sorry if I got your hopes up in vain, I guess there are no AGP versions of the X700 right now, dunno why, as Ati promised to have them out by Q4 2004, I'm really sorry about that...

Looks like ATi still holds the image quality throne, though nVidia is better than they were. I went and searched for an AGP X700, and I thought I had found one too, but it was PCIe

-Brian

I agree, 6600 GT is the best bet.

Like Advanced, I am a big fan of ATI. I own a 9800 pro. I got shafted on my 9800se originally(DEFINITELY DO NOT GO DOWN THIS PATH UNLESS YOU HAF NO CHOICE). If you have that kind of money, 6600 GT will work wonders. It is stronger then the 9800 pro no doubt!

But, I my 9800 Pro.

But no matter what the case is... be prepared for:
- 512 mb memory Vid Cards
- Ati's R520 Chip
- NVidia's G70 series

Oh my god, people, the 6600GT sucks
I agree that for NOW, it is a good choice, if youplan to play only games for 1(-2)years, and then quit.

Perhaps I can sway youto see the light.
let's take up on the 6800LE


1.) 6800LE runs on 300mhz, 6600GT on 500mhz
2.) MEM runs on 700mhz, 6600GT on 900mhz.

So far, the 6600GT is in lead

3.) The 6800LE has extra pipes and vertexes that are unlockable! to 16x6.
6600GT has 8x3!
4.) 6800LE has 256bit, 6600GT has a 128bit bus.
This means that the mem is twice as fast! meaning the 6600Gt in comparison
only got 450mhz against 700 of the6800LE.
5.) the 6800LE is an perfect 6800GT core, with the same capabilities.


Now, about those pipelines.

if you have core @600MHZ with 8pipes, he is as fast
as the core @300MHZ with 16pipes

so it is possible to get 4x more membandwith out of you card.
if you check the GPU databse on this site, you'll see the same result.
the 6600GT has 4.0GB/s, while the 6800 can get to 16.00GB/s

not bad I would think. it has less fillrate, that's true, but the chance you got you can't unlock 1 setof pipes, and the shaders, are very very slim.
even so, if yopu want to play safe, get and 6800NU, those got the same fillrate as an 6600GT, but 3x more bandwith! and with luck, you can unlock it fully to it's GT potential! (all with rivatuner, no hardmods)

ofc, I admid that it only has DDR1, and not DR3, but the point is
that the 6600GT doesn't make much use of it anyway.


The hard thruth is that an OC'd 6600GT can get 9000-9500 3dmark03 points, where an 6800 can take almost 11000.

And with the newer games also using larger textures, the 6600GT will get behind,
far behind. THAT'S why I said that the 9800pro will eventually preform better on the games of the nearer future then the 6600GT will, but ofc, it will also be to slow

It's a damn rip-off that new 128bits cards are still made.
So take an
XFX 256MB 6800 LE/NU with the 2.2ns ram
or
Aopen 256MB 6800LE/NU with 2.0ns ram (REVISION 3!!!!!!)

or if that is to expensive, even the cheapest 6800LE preforms almost as good
as an OC'd 6600GT. And like I said, the chances of unlocking 1 set of pipes with the shaders, are more then 80%


The best thing is to wait ofc, and buy that X800XL AGP in a month.

I recommend 6600 GT in regards to price. Using bbf as a basis...
the lowest price for a 6600 GT in cdn dollars is 234, where as 6800 Le is 341...

many renound review sites recommend 6600 GT also cuz of its price.

do you want to shell out an extra 110 dollars, when 6600 GT is a more then adequate video card right now?

Not every1 is rich... that's why these forums exist and why overclockers exist, to get the most bang out of their buck. If every1 could afford it, id say "get the BFG 6800 OC cuz its much much better then the 6600 GT" LOL!

But its not the case here. It's about smart spending.

Nergal said:

And with the newer games also using larger textures, the 6600GT will get behind,
far behind. THAT'S why I said that the 9800pro will eventually preform better on the games of the nearer future then the 6600GT will, but ofc, it will also be to slow

or if that is to expensive, even the cheapest 6800LE preforms almost as good
as an OC'd 6600GT. And like I said, the chances of unlocking 1 set of pipes with the shaders, are more then 80%

The best thing is to wait ofc, and buy that X800XL AGP in a month.

Click to expand...

I just am unable to imagine any scenario were the 9800Pro gets better performance than the 6600GT in the near future... though I would love to be proved wrong, I have a 9800 card in my PC after all

As for the chances of unlocking the 6800LE to be able to use all pipelines, I don't think that the success rate is as high as 80%, in fact, from what I've read, not even 50% of the ppl who get the 6800LE have been able to unlock it without getting massive artifacts...

About an AGP version of the X800XL, Ati has never announced such card, they did say that the AGP X700 would be available for Q4 '04, but there are no AGP cards yet, I really doubt they'll produce an AGP X800XL, as they haven't even mentioned the possibility of doing so...

15th Warlock said:

I just am unable to imagine any scenario were the 9800Pro gets better performance than the 6600GT in the near future... though I would love to be proved wrong, I have a 9800 card in my PC after all


About an AGP version of the X800XL, Ati has never announced such card, they did say that the AGP X700 would be available for Q4 '04, but there are no AGP cards yet, I really doubt they'll produce an AGP X800XL, as they haven't even mentioned the possibility of doing so...

Click to expand...

I agree, its not really possible that in the future a 9800pro will beat a 6600GT. About the X800XL on AGP, chances are unlikely that they're going to release it on AGP as more people today seem to be buying PCI-E instead of AGP...I know I would.

@Nergal: J-Dragon hit the nail on the head when he talks about the best bang for your buck. Obviously if you had all the money in the world you'd just buy the best card available but TestUser told us he wants a card for around €200 so then we should stick to that price limit.

I believe powercolor is going to release his X800XL AGP somewhere in the next month.

And may I say I'm the only critical voice here?
Well, let's talk about euro's shall we?
I didn't knew the cdn was so low, because I can get 6800LE's starting
from 199 to 240. And that little speed increase isn't so little I would think,
especially if you consider that it is a fully 6800CORE.
Besides, a tweaked 9800PRO can take 6000 3Dmark03 points easly.
So with an 6600GT you will get 50% speedincrease, but with a lower bandwith (more then half of it) While a 6800LE will give at least the same, but will still be able to handle games in the future.

And may I ask where you got your numbers from warlock?

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/33402/?o=0

http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/973935/0

this one is in dutch, but the first poll asks how many pipes/shaders
each user was able to unlock.

121 people with an Aopen of a total of 209 where able to unlock everything. with 27 nothing. (meaning no pipes extra) Or 87% succes, with almost 60% full unlock.

From a total of 530 XFX 6800LE owners, 118 reported no unlock capabilities. But 248 full capabilities. 77% succes, with 47% full unlock.

(succes = at least an extra shader and pipeline, outsmarting a 6600GT on any benchmark)

So with a simple tweaking in rivatuner, with the help of 1 of the 100th guids out there, you get an almost high-end card. WITH 256-bits.
(do mind I'm talking about the Aopen nd the XFX, not about other brands, however I heard nice things about the leadtek)

So a nice XFX will do, because I believe they are easy and cheap to find.

And I'm quite confident that a 9800PRO will preform better then the 6600GT on the 3dmark08 or 10 ofc, only scoring like 500points, while the 6600GT will get 300


PS: sorry if I sound a bit like I got a camera up my ass, but I like a good discussion, so pls, try to convince me that a 6600GT is better

Nergal said:

I believe powercolor is going to release his X800XL AGP somewhere in the next month.

And may I say I'm the only critical voice here?
Well, let's talk about euro's shall we?
I didn't knew the cdn was so low, because I can get 6800LE's starting
from 199 to 240. And that little speed increase isn't so little I would think,
especially if you consider that it is a fully 6800CORE.
Besides, a tweaked 9800PRO can take 6000 3Dmark03 points easly.
So with an 6600GT you will get 50% speedincrease, but with a lower bandwith (more then half of it) While a 6800LE will give at least the same, but will still be able to handle games in the future.

And may I ask where you got your numbers from warlock?

http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/topic/33402/?o=0

http://gathering.tweakers.net/forum/list_messages/973935/0

this one is in dutch, but the first poll asks how many pipes/shaders
each user was able to unlock.

121 people with an Aopen of a total of 209 where able to unlock everything. with 27 nothing. (meaning no pipes extra) Or 87% succes, with almost 60% full unlock.

From a total of 530 XFX 6800LE owners, 118 reported no unlock capabilities. But 248 full capabilities. 77% succes, with 47% full unlock.

(succes = at least an extra shader and pipeline, outsmarting a 6600GT on any benchmark)

So with a simple tweaking in rivatuner, with the help of 1 of the 100th guids out there, you get an almost high-end card. WITH 256-bits.
(do mind I'm talking about the Aopen nd the XFX, not about other brands, however I heard nice things about the leadtek)

So a nice XFX will do, because I believe they are easy and cheap to find.

And I'm quite confident that a 9800PRO will preform better then the 6600GT on the 3dmark08 or 10 ofc, only scoring like 500points, while the 6600GT will get 300


PS: sorry if I sound a bit like I got a camera up my ass, but I like a good discussion, so pls, try to convince me that a 6600GT is better

Click to expand...

Yeah, If you look at that Anandtech benchmark between the 6600GT and all the other cards, once the resolution and AA and AF are turned up, the 6600GT falls far behind, 20% or more. A 6800LE would be the best way to go. Though the 6600GT beats the 9800 Pro in everything, but I personally think IDSoft sabotouged the ATI video card drivers/plugins whatever.

Nergal said:

Rant, rant, rant and more rant. I love 6800 LE, f'shizzle. 6600 GT sux! Rant, rant, rant, and more rant. Buy 6800 LE now!!!

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LoL sorry, Just wanted to save space.

I think it was already previously justified that the 6600 GT will get you more bang for your buck.
Here's a recap of the prices in USD currency to help you better understand.

From my research, here r the costs of each card (converted to USD) w/ proof:

6600 GT : $188.00 USD
6800 LE : $239.00* USD
6800 GT : $313.53 USD
*does not include shipping and handling, since low price is from an online based store
---
6600 GT : link - CDN currency
6800 LE : link - US currency
6800 GT : link - CDN currency

I think that is proof enough on its own.

@Nergal: Please show me where you have found a 6800 LE for $199. If this is true, that means it is only $10 more expensive then the 6600 GT and it would then be definitely worth it.

Pardon my double posting. But it is to establish two seperate points.

The 9800 pro is in fact weaker then the 6600 GT. I've not been able to locate a benchmark chart that shows both cards in one chart, but I have found two charts with exactly the same settings.

Both charts are from Toms Hardware Guide:
Radeon 9800 Pro
Geforce 6600 GT

UT 2004 - Demo: Fallen City, Assault - Max Quality - No AA - No AF - 1204x768 - 32 bit

Radeon 9800 Pro (128/256 bit) - 116.3/117.2
Geforce 6600 GT - 160.3

[Even with AA and AF on, 9800 pro surpasses 6600 GT by only .5 frames. Cause the 9800 pro has 256-bit mem bus, as opposed to 6600 GT's 128-bit.]

*Unfortunately there is no equivalent 3D Mark bench for both of them, because the cards or on different levels/generation

I think this is proof enough.






Last point. Games will indeed be more graphically demanding in the future, but your card will be more then enough to play the games within these next 2 years. In the worse case you can tone down the graphics in the game.
It also depends on your system too, not just ur GFX card. Currently, with my 9800 Pro, i can run CS:S on 1280 x1024, full detail, no AA or AF, and get above 60+ FPS solid. That's pretty good considering how graphically demanding it is.

J-Dragon said:

The 9800 pro is in fact weaker then the 6600 GT. I've not been able to locate a benchmark chart that shows both cards in one chart, but I have found two charts with exactly the same settings.

Click to expand...

For a direct comparison, check the links I posted in the second page of this thread

Seems like today is a glorious day for us AGP users and Ati lovers, and seems Nergal was right after all about the X800XL!

From ati.com:

ATI Technologies Inc. (TSX:ATY)(NASDAQ:ATYT) today enhanced its family of graphics products for gamers and enthusiast PC users by announcing and shipping AGP versions of its popular RADEON® X800 XL graphics cards and RADEON® X850 XT graphics processors.

The RADEON X800, X800 XL and X850 Series visual processors originally debuted in December for PCI Express based systems. PCI Express is rapidly replacing AGP in new PC's as the primary interconnect technology between the main processor and the graphics subsystem. These new AGP variants will allow users who have not yet upgraded to PCI Express to experience the same great performance and image quality.

"The RADEON X800 XL and RADEON X850 products are perfect for gamers looking to upgrade their AGP systems to play the latest games," said Rich Heye, Vice President and GM, Desktop Discrete Products, ATI Technologies Inc. "ATI will continue to deliver leading-edge graphics solutions like these for AGP as well as PCI Express to support the large install base."

The RADEON X850 is a native AGP visual processor family featuring the RADEON X850 XT and other models. The RADEON X800 XL uses ATI's PCI Express to AGP Bridge chip, which allows PCI Express graphics processors to be used in AGP-based computers. RADEON X800 XL and RADEON X850 AGP products from ATI and ATI board partners are available through a variety of retail and e-tail outlets as well as through OEMs and system builders.

Click to expand...

It's good to know that Ati hasn't completely forgotten about us from this moment I'm officially starting to save for an X800XL, which will extend the life of my rig and save me a lot $$$ as opposed to having to get a new PCIe mobo and everything moving to that platform implies (getting new proc, video card and RAM ) Although there already was an "unofficial" AGP version of the X800XL (getting the X800Pro VIVO and unlocking the extra pipelines) it's good to now that Ati still officially supports aging AGP systems
Now all we have to do is start saving while we wait for the new cards to become available.